The future of SLR cameras in dive photography?

[PatW]

I think we have to talk terms first.

SLRs are single lens reflex cameras that are film cameras. And those are not used much anymore.

DSLR is what I think you are talking about. That is digital single lens reflex. Instead of film the camera has an electronic sensor that records the shot onto a digital storage device like an SD card. That image can be loaded onto a computer and manipulated with photographic software. So this was a major advance. You could change your ISO while shooting. With film, you were stuck with what you had. Also, you can take as many images as your cards can store and your batteries could last. With film, you were limited to 36 shots.

Now there are mirrorless cameras. You do not look directly at the image through the lens like an SLR or DSLR. Instead the sensor examines the image and projects it onto a TV screen displayed on the back of the camera and or in the viewfinder. It used to be that the resolution of these screens was low and the electronics were slow making auto focus glacial. These problems have been largely surmounted. The mirror on the DSLR caused a certain minimum distance between the sensor and the rear of the lens. With a mirrorless camera, the rear of the lens is closer and this allows for the design of lenses that are faster (lower f stop) and with higher resolution. Both of those are good things. Because mirrorless cameras have intrinsic advantages over DSLRs, camera manufacturers are pretty much only designing mirrorless cameras in the future. Sure the Nikon D850 is still a nice functional camera but it is slowly falling behind.

Now the other thing is why not just shoot with phones? Well why not? The problem is phones have tiny sensors. Tiny sensors have issues that are intractable because the physics of light. Larger sensors on dedicated cameras will always produce better images.

But how much do you need? For most shots in good light, displayed on a low resolution format like facebook, phones work great, For low light or high resolution photography, full frame cameras are superior, And medium format cameras with even larger sensors have an edge over full frame in certain circumstances. A problem medium format has is if you want a long lens for wildlife or sport it will be ENORMOUS and cost $$$$$$$$. So forget that.

 

[bvanant]

John: you had me going for a second, my view of your post showed only the dolphins and I thought you had built a housing for the Sinar, that would be fun.
Bill

 

[bvanant]

DSLRs are I think, going to be a niche product going forward. Let’s talk about the practical realities of owning one for Scuba as a hobby.

To give my example - I have an OMD mirrorless camera and a set 3 lenses that have been lying in the cupboard (a waste of $1500 better spent of Scuba gear) since more than 8 years now because for International trips my carry-on is filled with 4kgs of electronics (all scuba related - 18650 lithium batteries, dive computers, chargers, power banks, 2 action cam and accessories etc etc). Combined with a fully packed scuba gear check-in suitcase that weighs exactly 20kg after careful planning and load distribution, I just don’t see a point in lugging a 3rd carry-on which would be a camera case, apart from my laptop/tablet sling bag. Or… paying another $50-100 per ticket over and above the extra $100 I am already paying for ferrying my Scuba gear - for excess baggage over and above my 2-piece check-in bags weighing 28kgs or more. And so - given that 3 carry-ons are not allowed universally, I will have to check-in my camera using those special pelican hard case luggage boxes with foam inserts (add $200, maybe $300 for DSLR sized boxes and lenses), which means a $500 ticket will cost me $650-700 typically - and that’s after ignoring domestic flights in the destination country. And then while a typical DSLR body only costs above $1200, the UW housings are all upwards of $2500! (That’s bare minimum cost ignoring lenses and dome ports for now)…

Totally doesn’t make sense for most middle-income people from any part of the world and certainly not for people living in non-affluent countries… For those of us for whom photography is not a livelihood or side-gig with income, cellphones and action cams are a very acceptable compromise. All done one typically has to pay less than $500 for the cam + $60 for a UW housing add a few dollars more for extra batteries and one is all set! Money better spent of diving, gear or flight tickets… What I mean is that people in non-affluent countries will still continue to buy expensive camera gear costing up to $3000 or more for bird and animal photography etc, but post the fact that you discover in you a diving addiction, and given that Scuba is an expensive hobby that requires extensive foreign travel, it is unlikely that a regular middle-income person (i.e the vast majority in the market) is going to splurge on DSLR rigs for diving going forward, given that the current levels of action cam IQ and performance is pretty decent and favourable.

As for me - I am happy to have a “point and shoot” action cam on my dives that lets me just focus a bit more on enjoying my dives rather than fiddle with intricate gadgetry all the time. With a bit of post-processing and editing effort, I am quite pleased with the results from any camera with a sensor larger that 1/2.3. To my eyes the newer action cams with 1/1.3 sensor sizes give acceptable output although even better are the 1” sensor small mirrorless cameras but with added cost.

Moreover I have always felt comfortably smug on Liveaboards while lounging that extra half an hour on the sofa with a coffee mug in hand while I watch the big-camera folks anxiously go over the vacuum tests on their large camera rigs, fussing and fretting over their gear and o-rings some half an hour before the next dive starts… not for me, No Thanks!

Lots of assumptions in your post. Some of us still dive locally so now planes or even trains to get to the water. Second, while housings for cameras can cost $2500 or more, there are lots of housings for less than $1000. Action cam IQ and quality and particularly dynamic range are not close to that of even micro 4/3 cameras or TG7 systems and for macro they are mostly useless. We dive about 250 dives a year so a $4000 system over 2 years means $8 per dive, less than the cost of nitrox for local diving. Most of our diving friends are not wealthy (comparatively) but think of UW photography as an important part of their lives. Our best diving buddy has never gone overseas to dive, but willingly spends $$ on camera gear for UW and for Birds.


Cheers
Bill

 

[Nemrod]

The system I have now, Nauticam NA6400, has miles to go yet before it sleeps. But I have the funds for one more system when the time comes to say adios to my present camera. And I have no idea what I want. I, again, keep hoping that Nauticam (or somebody) will just build a one inch sensor integral camera like the Nikonos in digital form.

Going back to a plastic or acrylic housing aftrer owning now two Nauticam housings, I do not see that happening but anything is possible. I like the way AOI integrates their flash controller! I would be perfectly happy with a modern one inch sensor and unlimited X-speeds, full manual and simple auto and TTL, optically driven so the Nauticam and Canon G7 III is almost enticing if I were buying today. Or if OM Systems would present the TG-Pro that was rumored before the pandemonium with full manual control and the one inch sensor.

OM Systems, hey, I am talking to you! You want people to buy your camera instead of a stupid phone, okay, give them what the phone does not have, a huge freaking sensor (comparatively) and full manual controls) .

The size of mirrorless and dSLR camera systems is often exaggerated. I have friends using the TG cameras and by the time they get strobes, lights, trays, handles, dual mirrors and curb feelers, their systems are bigger in footprint than my Nauticam which is much more an integrated and refined system.

 

[sea_ledford]

If I were to pursue a housing company at this point, I would skip the low end and head straight into cinema housings, including custom housings. With Nikon purchasing RED, and dropping the price for an "intro" level RED to about $6K from $10K, there are going to be a lot more people looking at higher end video systems. Sony has a hand full (both mirrorless size with the FX3 and FX30, as well as more box camera style), Canon has a few options in the pro video market, there are three (I think) different REDs, Blackmagic Design has some surprisingly affordable cameras that are 6K, 8K and 12K(!) capable.

As far as I know, Nauticam has this market pretty much cornered, and they only make housings for a few of those cameras. Marelux make a couple Sony video housings, but if there are housings for a half dozen high end video cameras I would be surprised. Just checked, Nauticam makes 10 different cinema camera housings, three of which are for Arri cameras (about $80k for just the body), Marelux makes two (one arri, and one for the Sony FX3/30).

More and more of these are getting into wireless controls, so housings will be easier to produce. The nauticam housed RED V Raptor I have used was way less complex than my marelux housing for a sony A7iv. It basically had a focus and zoom knob, record trigger, 4 buttons on top for settings changes, and a panel on the side for deeper menu settings that only needed to be touched if something had gone wrong. The thing was a dream to use underwater! I'm glad I didn't pay for it at about $100K all in though.

 

[Mas.]

The nauticam housed RED V Raptor I have used was way less complex than my marelux housing for a sony A7iv.

@sea_ledford was the Nauticam RED V-RAPTOR with lights very heavy to operate?

 

[sea_ledford]

@sea_ledford was the Nauticam RED V-RAPTOR with lights very heavy to operate?

Nope, it was a dream. Big camera means lots of mass, so it was very stable. Buoyancy was pretty much dialed in, so it was maybe a 1/2 lb negative. Trim depended on where the lights were positioned.

I had it mounted to a scooter so I needed to do some fiddling with the combo to get that buoyancy correct, but I got it perfectly neutral eventually. I could let it go on deco and it would just sit there.

 

[Wobbegong_th]

In my opinion, there're actually 4 markets for UW Housing. (1) High end DSLR & Mirrorless (2) Compact Camera (3) Action Camera (4) Mobile Phone

My opinion on each market are as follow:
(1) DSLR and Mirrorless (interchangable lens): These cameras give best image quality and greatest control compare to other markets. Numerous choices of camera brand, model, lenses are available. However, the numerous choices also became a pain point. Housing are not available for all model & lens. Major brand housing tend to provide housing for top-tier camera model only, and discontinue the older model quite quickly. Cost for the whole system are also high, especially when include all the necessary parts (port components, accessories, strobe trigger, etc.)

(2) Compact camera: Second in term of image quality. Unable to change lens but usually come with wide range zoom lens, but not 'to the extreme' either way. Not as wide as fisheye/rectilinear. Not as high magnification as DSLR & Mirrorless Macro-specific lens. (except certain model with 'supermacro' specific capability). Control sometimes lacking - some does not have manual mode. Typically has to rely on Optical Sync for strobe. Also limited model availability in recent years - as the land-base market got taken up with smartphone. Housing are also limited. Typically cheaper than DSLR/Mirrorless system.

(3) Action camera: These camera mainly made for Video, especially wide-angle video. Photo performance is about par with compact camera. Most model would not be able to change field of view unless in post-production. Most model that I know of would be almost useless for macro without external lens attachment. Very simple housing. However, when in housing, you'd almost unable to make any change to the setting - as most of these camera rely on touch-screen menu which would not be accessible in UW housing. Only 3 major brand of camera in this market - each make their own UW housing with many aftermarket players.

(4) Mobile Phone: Although mobile phone camera came a long ways from their early days, physically the sensor and lens quality still not as good as high-end compact camera. As most, if not all, of them rely on touch screen to operate, the housing either need an external parts with application to communicate the control, or need some special membrane to allow touchscreen to work underpressure. For me, I'm still reluctant to put my main phone in housing due to risk of flooding and lost ability to use the phone, especially when these days many things, including money & payment, are on the phone.

In my opinion, the most interesting gap in housing market would be at "Action Cam" market. Where ability to adjust setting when in housing does not exist. If a housing company can come up with a housing that enable user to somehow access setting, with proper pricing, it would be interesting. I think I saw one for gopro but not really sure if it's on the market yet.

 

[Barmaglot]

Major brand housing tend to provide housing for top-tier camera model only, and discontinue the older model quite quickly.

There isn't much point in housing low-end cameras when the entire system costs $10000-20000 or even more - a $500 difference in body cost is just noise at that point, while downgrading the body features negatively affects the whole rig.

(3) Action camera: These camera mainly made for Video, especially wide-angle video. Photo performance is about par with compact camera.

That's a bit of a stretch, considering that action cameras cannot sync with strobes, and almost all compacts can.

However, when in housing, you'd almost unable to make any change to the setting - as most of these camera rely on touch-screen menu which would not be accessible in UW housing.

AOI UH-GPX seems to tick this box, although it's quite expensive.

 

[rmorgan]

The newer iPhones (basically, 14 and higher) are able to take RAW images (up to 48 MP, should you want it) which are editable as any other RAW file, and there are 3d-part apps which replace the native camera controls (e.g. Deep Photo, Halide and others, and Filmic Pro for video), affording a lot more camera control. My iPhone 14, which I use on occasion in a DiveVolk housing, on a tray with one or two constant lights, does reasonably. The biggest problem is the inability to trigger strobes, of course; however, it is already possible to use Bluetooth to trigger strobes with an iPhone on land using ProFoto, and I doubt that underwater application is too far behind (DiveVolk already has a WiFi device, the Sealink, which allows an iPhone in a SeaTouch housing to be used as a monitor for a housed camera).

The housed iPhone is certainly not a replacement for my housed camera with strobes--not yet, and maybe never. But it is immensely portable, far less expensive, and increasingly capable as a sophisticated camera. I would bet on companies like DiveVolk or ProFoto to be working around the clock on a way for an iPhone or other device to trigger strobes, a development which, with strobes like the Backscatter models which combine flash and constant lighting, could square the circle. I wouldn't expect serious u/w photographers to be ready to give up their Nauticam/Seacam/Ikelite housings to try a new housing design (although Marelux does seem to have some traction), but the team that comes up with flashes properly synched to a mobile phone will certainly make a splash.