There are some misinformed people, including instructors, bashing PADI and the MSD

[matt_unique]

For those bashing PADI and the Master Diver certification - you need to do some homework, and some sensible thinking.....

With the exception of 1 dive per applicable "specialty" dive from AOW (such as deep and night), dives count for only one specialty at a time. You cannot do a boat dive on a wreck at night in a drysuit breathing nitrox, etc. and have this one dive apply to 5 specialties. Each specialty has a different number of required dives in addition to completing the course book, end of chapter knowledge tests (to be handed in to the instructor and discussed), video, and in some cases a final exam. Not all specialty courses require a final written exam. These courses require demonstrated proficiency in the water. As we all know the instructor sets the bar for this portion.

PADI advertises how one would be "well qualified" to move into the Dive Master program once they have completed the Master Diver certification. Dive Master is not a step forward from Master Diver in terms of certifications. It is a different "direction" altogether. There is no "paradox" as referenced in another post. PADI simply and obviously wants to try to get more training revenue. As this same person pointed out, the MSD is attained with 50 logged dives, the completion of AOW and Rescue, and the completion of 5 specialty courses. These 5 specialty courses MUST be dive related contrary to several bashers. Non-diving certifications do not count towards the MSD. Also keep in mind what Dive Masters do....this is not a knock on DM's....but they assist instructors with what are usually novice classes from shore in 30 feet of water. This does not apply to all and I know many DM's with tons of experience that really know their sh*t. I also know many DM's that are very inexperienced and have little or no advanced diving experience. The same could be said for Master Divers.

Once you attain Rescue Diver in the PADI system you have two paths to choose from. You can either go directly into the Dive Master program or you can proceed with specialties to work toward the Master Diver.

I chose the Master Diver route because I wanted to expand my skills in ways that would not often be addressed with the Dive Master program. As with *most* instructors in New England, there is more demand for open water classes so instructors and Dive Masters spend most of their time chasing weight belts in 30 feet of water. Again, this is not a knock on instructors or DM's, I appreciate their passion and desire to train. It is just a fact based on student demand. This was not in line with what I wanted to do.

--Matt

 

[Arnaud]

For those bashing PADI and the Master Diver certification - you need to do some homework, and some sensible thinking.....

With the exception of 1 dive per applicable "specialty" dive from AOW (such as deep and night), dives count for only one specialty at a time. You cannot do a boat dive on a wreck at night in a drysuit breathing nitrox, etc. and have this one dive apply to 5 specialties. Each specialty has a different number of required dives in addition to completing the course book, end of chapter knowledge tests (to be handed in to the instructor and discussed), video, and in some cases a final exam. Not all specialty courses require a final written exam. These courses require demonstrated proficiency in the water. As we all know the instructor sets the bar for this portion.

PADI advertises how one would be "well qualified" to move into the Dive Master program once they have completed the Master Diver certification. Dive Master is not a step forward from Master Diver in terms of certifications. It is a different "direction" altogether. There is no "paradox" as referenced in another post. PADI simply and obviously wants to try to get more training revenue. As this same person pointed out, the MSD is attained with 50 logged dives, the completion of AOW and Rescue, and the completion of 5 specialty courses. These 5 specialty courses MUST be dive related contrary to several bashers. Non-diving certifications do not count towards the MSD. Also keep in mind what Dive Masters do....this is not a knock on DM's....but they assist instructors with what are usually novice classes from shore in 30 feet of water. This does not apply to all and I know many DM's with tons of experience that really know their sh*t. I also know many DM's that are very inexperienced and have little or no advanced diving experience. The same could be said for Master Divers.

Once you attain Rescue Diver in the PADI system you have two paths to choose from. You can either go directly into the Dive Master program or you can proceed with specialties to work toward the Master Diver.

I chose the Master Diver route because I wanted to expand my skills in ways that would not often be addressed with the Dive Master program. As with *most* instructors in New England, there is more demand for open water classes so instructors and Dive Masters spend most of their time chasing weight belts in 30 feet of water. Again, this is not a knock on instructors or DM's, I appreciate their passion and desire to train. It is just a fact based on student demand. This was not in line with what I wanted to do.

--Matt

Not sure which thread you're talking about. The main problem with the MSD thing is that it is not sanctioned by any exam. Once you have the pre-requisite # of cards, you can just apply for it and get it... yet another useless card that PADI charges for.

Collecting cards is just not a requirement to developing one's experience unless you're into PADI's pyramid scheme.

BTW, I've been there...

 

[Boogie711]

This was not in line with what I wanted to do.

Good for you. There's a lot of people on this board who aren't in line with anything PADI wants to do.

 

[matt_unique]

Not sure which thread you're talking about. The main problem with the MSD thing is that it is not sanctioned by any exam. Once you have the pre-requisite # of cards, you can just apply for it and get it... yet another useless card that PADI charges for.

Collecting cards is just not a requirement to developing one's experience unless you're into PADI's pyramid scheme.

BTW, I've been there...

You're right, there is no test for the Master Diver in itself - $29 application fee, application form filled out and signed by your instructor, verification of the requisite certs and it's yours. I am definitely an advocate for making the MSD certification requirements more stringent. Perhaps a final exam that covers all your selected specialties and several checkout dives with an experienced instructor such as a Course Director.

I was referring to the SSI vs. PADI thread.

--Matt

 

[Marvintpa]

PADI is the biggest and an easy target for criticism - this has been well covered elsewhere.

As for the merits of the MSD course... I'm sure there are graduates of that certification path who are excellent divers, and others who are are somewhat less proficient. A great deal depends on which specialties are pursued. Someone who does deep, nitrox, night, ice and rebreather would be considerably different from someone who chooses boat, DPV, drift, naturalist and an esoteric distinctive specialty (the point-and-shoot camera photography specialty comes to mind).

From what I hear around here the criticism of the MSD program is that the value is in the 5 specialties and the 50 dives, not in the MSD card itself. This program was greatly increased in value with the addition of the 50 dives, in my humble opinion. I am a PADI instructor and have to deal with criticisms of this program on a regular basis. I believe the MSD program is meant to motivate relatively new divers to continue diving and learning... and if it accomplishes even one of those it has been successful.

 

[LUBOLD8431]

IMO, no one is a "Master Scuba Diver" by completing five specialties, and 50 dives. I think the card is meaningless...

Now, if you changed it to 10 specialties, and 500 dives, it might mean something.

 

[perpet1]

Look at the NAUI equilivent. The knowledge requirements alone are much more challenging and the final exam actually requires that one study. I am a PADI DM as well as a NAUI Instructor and as a PADI DM at the time I had to study to pass the NAUI master diver exam.

It is a lot different the collect some cards and apply for a new card.

 

[IndigoBlue]

Look at the NAUI equilivent. The knowledge requirements alone are much more challenging and the final exam actually requires that one study. I am a PADI DM as well as a NAUI Instructor and as a PADI DM at the time I had to study to pass the NAUI master diver exam.

It is a lot different the collect some cards and apply for a new card.

After my NAUI basic O/W, and many years of diving, I decided to try out the best of all the others. So I took the SSI AOW and Rescue Diver courses (although PADI has a great rescue diver course as well), and the PADI Divemaster course. An opportunity to join a NAUI ITC and return to my NAUI roots appeared, and I took it. The NAUI Master Diver manual is the technical course book for the NAUI ITC at our store, although other topics such as leadership and teaching are a part of the ITC as well.

I found the NAUI Master Diver manual to be on a reasonable par with the PADI D/M materials, particularly the PADI Encyclopoedia of Recreational Diving.

As a NAUI instructor, I teach by NAUI's standards and methods. Sometimes I will fold-in some PADI things that NAUI does not have, such as PADI's 5-point descent procedures. There are many things that both agencies have that are similar, only named differently, such as NAUI's ABCD pre-dive buddy check, and PADI's BWRAF (begin with review and friend); or NAUI's SEABAG predive briefing vs PADI's 15-point predive briefing.

PADI's strongest courses are their basic rescue course and their divemaster course, in my opinion, based on my observations as a PADI D/M. These are as good as SSI's or NAUI's if not even a little more comprehensively taught.

However PADI's Master Diver course leaves a lot to be desired, when compared to either NAUI or SSI. In particular, the PADI Master Diver course is no more than an additional AOW segment in the PADI format of mostly just going on more dives with an instructor and divemasters.

I do not know why PADI offers a Master Diver course in its current format. Its divers would be better off in a PADI D/M course, or else to be at least required to master their Encyclopoedia of Recreational Diving. That is probably the main difference between PADI and the two other agencies.

I cannot speak for YMCA. I have friends who dive and teach for YMCA, but I know little or nothing personally about their programs.

Overall I must agree with Perpet's observations of the PADI Master Diver course. Just a lot more worthless plastic cards. Matt, you are probably more than ready to join a PADI D/M class now, however, and that is where you will really start to learn a lot about scuba diving.

 

[Walter]

Please define "bashing."

 

[Drew Sailbum]

A few of your criticisms are well off the mark.

For those bashing PADI and the Master Diver certification - you need to do some homework, and some sensible thinking.....

With the exception of 1 dive per applicable "specialty" dive from AOW (such as deep and night), dives count for only one specialty at a time. You cannot do a boat dive on a wreck at night in a drysuit breathing nitrox, etc. and have this one dive apply to 5 specialties.

Not quite. Effective with the 1st Quarter 2000 Training Bulletin, the required dives for the Enriched Air Specialty Course may be combined with dives from other courses. Since the 4th Quarter 2003 Training Bulletin, the other course could even be Open Water. Same dive counts toward both courses, even specialtiy courses.

These 5 specialty courses MUST be dive related contrary to several bashers. Non-diving certifications do not count towards the MSD.

Wrong again. Effective with the 1st Quarter 2002 Training Bulletin, the standard is now:

Also, all PADI Specialty Diver courses may count toward the five required specialty certi-fications
for MSD. Previously only diving specialties (those that include open water dives)
were accepted. Now, those specialties considered nondiving (without open water dives)
including Project AWARE and AWARE — Coral Reef Conservation credit toward the rating.

By my count, you could do four of the standard specialties without any required dives including Equipment Specialist, Project AWARE, DSAT Gas Blender, Project AWARE -- Coral Reef Conservation. Tack on a distinctive specialty such as Oxygen Administration and that's five with zero dives.


Looks like you need to do some homework of your own.