The value of PADI

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I guess I just don't follow what is being said here. In general I thought that when you pass your OW course and AOW course, you should easily be able to dive without the supervision of a DM or instructor. So why the above statement? When you say "one can not be considered having had the training to be an independent diver" who is doing the considering? Is that just some person's opinion of the PADI system? Is the NAUI system any different? If one passes the NAUI OW and AOW are they also considered not to be ready to be an independent diver? If that's really the case, then I would think both agencies are failing miserably.

I recall from my OW course that instructor told us with emphasis "In the conditions you were trained"

I was trained in a 25ft very cold dark quarry, after certification (NAUI) I went back the next weekend and dove w/o a DM and felt very comfortable.....Then I did my first open ocean dive off a boat in 82*F water with 100' vis...I was nervous as hell, nervous to do a true free decent into the blue abyss, nervous to go down to 60'. Why? Because that was not the conditions I was trained in, although they were nicer conditions, I needed/desired/obtained supervision there till I got used to things.

Does this mean NAUI passed me as an incompetent diver..No..It just means I didn't have the experience to dive independently in that environment.

Ditto all this for all my "firsts"; night dive, drift dive, etc, etc. Pretty much anywhere that is not a 25ft cold dark quarry, I would hire a DM, or tag along with someone experienced to accompany me for at least the 1st time maybe 2nd as well. At least thats what I was trained to do :coffee:
 
When you say "independent diver" is that the same as "solo diver"?
NO! And "independent diver" is one who has been taught the basic skills to "independently plan and effectuate" a dive -- that is, without having a "diving professional" guide them with either the plan or the dive itself. All "PADI Diving" is with a buddy.

Back to some comments made by Sirena: First of all, IF you are "constantly" looking at/for your buddy, why are you diving? Now I know you really mean: "Look at my guages, look at my buddy, look at the pretty fishies; look at my guages, look at my buddy, look at the pretty fishies; etc." which is how one "dives to stay found." That's how a well trained, comfortable diving team works -- but as you know, that takes time and practice -- and it also takes diving with someone who is on the same dive wavelength as you are. (Of course, as you know, an awful lot of "technical training" is focused on "situational awareness" and you have the benefit of that training -- the "diving" part is second nature to you.)

It seems that this dive was a setup for the problems the OP describes. Wall dives are tough to maintain good buddy awareness for many reasons: buoyancy control needs to be automatic and generally isn't with the inexperienced divers like described and being single file is hard to manage without good lights (requiring someone to turn around to look AND maintain buoyancy is a hard learned skill) -- I'd cut the "leader" a little slack here.

In the OP's case, since he had concerns about losing his "buddiness" (to coin a phrase) he should have changed his position so that he was on her outside shoulder making it possible for her to see him easily. Yes, that may very well hinder the joy of the dive, but, with a little bit of UW communication, you can switch positions periodically and/or when the "inside" diver sees something of interest, stop and invite the "outside" diver in to look. (If a drift dive, of course both divers can be head into the wall and drift it together.)

Re the debrief and the "shame on you" -- I apologize for using that phrase since this is a "flame free" forum. HOWEVER, from the very first pool dive, a PADI student is taught/should be taught that the "debrief" is a very important part of each diving session. It is the time to go over what went well, what perhaps went not so well and how could things have gone better -- i.e., a "teaching moment" for all concerned. It is my experience that one learns a whole lot more when things have NOT gone well (which appears to be the case here) than when the dive is wonderful.

The OP came onto this forum and discussed his unhappiness with this less experienced diver -- why didn't he discuss it with her? At the end of the dive, sit down, have a hot drink to warm up and go over the dive. Even today, it seems like it would still be a good idea to discuss the dive with her -- ask her, Did you like how things went? Were you OK with my "buddy skill?" Do you have any suggestions for me to make it easier for you to know where I am? And, by the way, there were a couple of times when I tried to signal you but I couldn't get your attention -- any suggestions on what I could do there?
 
ONLY if they pass the BAR Exam. I kinda like the idea of having an independent exam, but it would prove way too unwieldy.

However, I REALLY like the idea of online academics for both OW and AOW. This kind of standardized approach to the book learning portion means that everyone gets the same information BEFORE they get to the instructor.

I was completely skeptical of the online PADI course when that rolled out. Now, I like it because it means less work for me and more money...haha. But truthfully, I was raised in an environment where becoming a diver was to be somewhat institutionalized like the military and this means spending all your time with your instructor. How can a student be truly immersed with a couple pool sessions and a couple ow sessions. This format works well for those that truly self-driven like those that own there own businesses. And those who succeed best at the watermanship with short format are those that are well conditioned: competitive swimmers, fire fighters, military - these are some of my favorite students. But I love those that aren't as adapted - the family divers. But they need more time. Unfortunately, other than suggesting private lessons and requiring makeup sessions we can't really do much more for them. All we can do is invite them into our dive family. The more travel they do, the more research, the more different types of gear and different conditions and different types of diving, the more local dives, the more they dive with professionals and truly advanced divers.....the better they will become. But alas, not all want a diving lifestyle, just a pastime. To become diving's fairweather fans.

Thrillhouse, I think you will be made a better diver for diving with lots of different buddies. It's like ballroom dancers: If you only dance with one person, you get used to their moves, their leads, you are forgiving of their weak leads. It's when you dance with many that you are able to learn new things, and realize that some leads aren't strong enough as they need to be.
And no doubt, your nightmare buddy learned something from you. And next time she dives she will think of you and try to emulate that advanced diver who was so comfortable in the water.
 
I guess I just don't follow what is being said here. In general I thought that when you pass your OW course and AOW course, you should easily be able to dive without the supervision of a DM or instructor. So why the above statement? When you say "one can not be considered having had the training to be an independent diver" who is doing the considering? Is that just some person's opinion of the PADI system? Is the NAUI system any different? If one passes the NAUI OW and AOW are they also considered not to be ready to be an independent diver? If that's really the case, then I would think both agencies are failing miserably.

Last I heard PADI is of the opinion that once you pass OW you are "certified to dive to the level of your training and ability"... and the reqirement to have a DM or instructor along is NOT present...

... now, what defines "to the level of your training AND ability" is maybe where the grey area and personal interpretation comes in...

The problem with words is that they tend to take on the meaning that we'd prefer they have rather than any other intention. *My* understanding is that in the case of "Advanced Open Water" the word "advanced" is an modifier to "Open Water" and not to the the non-present word "Diver"... yet how many times do we see people describe themselves as an "Advanced Diver"?

If people really WANT to get it wrong... it doesn't take too much effort to make that happen... but that's where ego comes into play... "Advanced" sounds *so* much cooler than "I'm *just* an Open Water diver."...

Whether you call it "Advanced Open Water"... "Open Water Two"... "More stuff involving Open Water" or just "Bob"... it doesn't change what it is... nor will it change the attitudes of those who think that it's either a bunch of garbage or those who think that by taking it they're now ready to sign on with Chatterton...

... grump...

ALL beginning training is just that... BEGINNING training... doesn't matter which agency you get it from... the one thing that nobody's 'beginning training' is going to give you is the one or two hundred dives in varying conditions... with varying idiot buddies... and varying 'dive issues'... that will take you from a pool diver to a "diver"... the only question, in my less than humble opinion, is how far down that path they get ya' started before they cut the umbilical cord...
 
Huh? :confused:I've referred lots of divers on OW courses and I'm English. I've also seen lots of divers who trained with non-English instructors who clearly never made the grade.
Um.....wow. FYI, I was referring to instructors of the English language, not diving instructors from a particular area of the world.

As for the PADI AOW class.....I think the best time to take it is immediately after OW. It's 5 more dives, which MAY be supervised. That's what you're going to get out of it from most instructors. That's the value as I see it. I dunno why anyone would take it after they already have 20+ dives, unless they just needed the little plastic card, or, by some miracle, they found a PADI instructor that goes well beyond the minimum requirements for the class.

On the name "advanced" - it's really too bad that people get so hung up on this little world. The training is more advanced than OW training. It allows the diver to advance his or her training. It allows the diver to advance his/her diving experiences. Just because the course is called "Advanced Open Water Diver" doesn't mean that the diver him/herself is advanced, any more than my M.S. degree means I am a "master" of science. Hell, for that matter, lots of married people get a "bachelor's" degree. It's just a label!
 
ALL beginning training is just that... BEGINNING training... doesn't matter which agency you get it from... the one thing that nobody's 'beginning training' is going to give you is the one or two hundred dives in varying conditions... with varying idiot buddies... and varying 'dive issues'... that will take you from a pool diver to a "diver"... the only question, in my less than humble opinion, is how far down that path they get ya' started before they cut the umbilical cord...

I think the world would be a better place without guided dives. If a dive consisted of a boat ride and a description of the site, I think you would see a whole lot more divers doing dives they were actually qualified to do. "Follow me" is not a valid dive plan.

Terry
 
I think the world would be a better place without guided dives. If a dive consisted of a boat ride and a description of the site, I think you would see a whole lot more divers doing dives they were actually qualified to do. "Follow me" is not a valid dive plan.

Terry

I'm absolutely onboard with that.

The problem with "guided dives" is that it give the illusion that there are training wheels around somewhere and if things go sideways somebody will "make it safe" again... or that the dive is a Disney ride where everything is really safe and... gee... look at that moray eel... let's go pet it!!

While I *can* see using a guide or DM to show you the ropes about an area or situation you might not be familiar with... a guide or DM should never be a subtitute for learning skills necessary if the perameters of a dive are beyond what your comfort zone is... or an excuse to turn off the organic dive computer between your ears. If ya' feel that you *need* to dive with a DM... it's time to sign up for a refresher course...

If I were into tattoos I think I'd get that "Follow Me" is not a valid dive plan" senciled on me somewhere for the benefit of everybody else I dive with... :rofl3:

Skydiving strapped to the guy who has the parachute on isn't *really* skydiving... its going for a ride.
 
Regardless of the training, a diver is only as good as he/she is. I've have been diving with people with over 100 dives, including Rescue, and they still get lost, have problems with current, don't follow buddy planning, dart up to the surface too quickly, and have trouble with buoyancy.

Do I buddy with them? Yes - it's hard to find any buddies in our area (However, my PADI Instructor son will not dive with them - he says they are a "professional liability".). But when I buddy, I take in consideration who am I going with and stay with them. I would never let someone who is not capable "lead" or I might let them think they are the "leader", but really take responsibility for them. So, I even take new divers with me - I will teach them good skills, and we do have each other to "depend" on/buddy with. Now, all of this said, I do carry all equipment necessary to "solo" including my pony w/separate regulator, DAN sausage/lift bag, reel, xtra mask, and numerous dive knives/surgical scissors.

Oh, about guided dives. They are great for places you are visiting the first time - to make sure you don't miss that beautiful coral head, or those sea snakes, or the place where the dolphins or sea turtles are. Other than that - I love to go a wandering, with my favorite dive buddy - my son!

drdaddy
 
AOW is a misnomer in PADI. PADI has defined the second level course as "Adventures in Diving" since at LEAST 2003. I think the dive industry is the one that continues to promote the class as AdvancedOW. I can not speak to other agencies as I don't have their training materials in front of me! :D
 
I don't think Adventures in Diving is going anywhere. It isn't discussed or offered anywhere around here. OW, AOW, Rescue - that's the sequence.

Richard
 

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