The straw that broke the divers back.

[lulubelle]

Well, undercurrent that was so hard it was pushing our purge valves, I have been told is not normal and was due to the atlantic hurricane. The next day it had gone away and we had what they call a "normal" current in NC.

Seriously, it was "hold on to the wreck for dear life" that first day. I suspected it might not be normal when I noticed the Amberjacks hiding behind me to get a breather from the current.

Well then you have been properly initiated . Did you have to play chicken with the ladder to get back on the boat? I have had a few like that. I pretty much routinely pull myself down the anchor line without finning. On my last dive on the Spar, the current was strong even on the bottom. It was pretty cool to watch how the sharks behaved in the current. Starboard side, on the sand, facing into it. I'm still fascinated by all of it.

 

[116fire]

I'll give you the couch potato,anyone who is not active in general probably should not be in the water. I'll give you the gravely ill one too, anyone who is not generally well should not be in the water. But as for your reference to a "disgusting fat body", sounds like you have some issues there.

No this isn't personal I don't know you. Its actually a quote from Full Metal Jacket:
from IMDB
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Holy Jesus! What is that? What the **** is that? WHAT IS THAT, PRIVATE PYLE?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, a jelly doughnut, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: A jelly doughnut?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: How did it get here?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, I took it from the mess hall, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Is chow allowed in the barracks, Private Pyle?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Are you allowed to eat jelly doughnuts, Private Pyle?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, no, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: And why not, Private Pyle?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, because I'm too heavy, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Because you are a disgusting fat body, Private Pyle!
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, yes, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Then why did you try to sneak a jelly doughnut in your foot locker, Private Pyle?
Private Gomer Pyle: Sir, because I was hungry, sir!
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Because you were hungry...
[turns and addresses rest of platoon]
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Private Pyle has dishonored himself and dishonored the platoon. I have tried to help him. But I have failed. I have failed because YOU have not helped me. YOU people, have not given Private Pyle the proper motivation! So, from now on, whenever Private Pyle ****s up, I will not punish him! I will punish all of YOU! And the way I see it ladies, you owe me for ONE JELLY DOUGHNUT! NOW, GET DOWN ON YOUR FACES!
[rest of recruits get in front-leaning-rest position, Hartman turns to Pyle]
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: Open your mouth!
[shoves jelly doughnut into PYLE's mouth]
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman: They're payin' for it; YOU eat it! Ready! Exercise!

I remember a clip of William "refriderator" Perry jumping up and down off a normal height table. Fantastic athletic ability and fitness, and no one ever called him svelte. In fact most NFL linemen are probably "fat" or even obese by strict BMI standards, one can't claim they are not fit.

Ok facts:

from: Rubicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/909

BACKGROUND: Cardiovascular disease is a significant cause of diving related fatalities. The Divers Alert Network (DAN) collects and analyzes all available information on diving related fatalities in an effort to make recommendations that promote safe diving. METHODS: The Divers Alert Network database was queried to determine the age distribution of deaths attributed to cardiovascular disease. All cases where cardiovascular disease was the cause of death or the primary contributing factor to the fatality were pulled for review. Cardiovascular disease is likely under-reported as a cause of death in the DAN database because occasional cases contain incomplete information (e.g., body not recovered), not all diving related deaths result in an autopsy, and cardiac dysrhythmias are impossible to prove or exclude at autopsy. The cases were reviewed by DAN staff and a physician with training both in diving medicine and forensic pathology. The fatalities were plotted by age to determine if any recommendations could be made regarding pre-participation physical evaluation. A cardiologist with extensive experience in diving medicine and physiology also reviewed the data. RESULTS: There were 877 diving fatalities reported during the years 1990-1999; 130 (14.8percent) were attributed to cardiovascular disease. The following table gives the age distribution of the diving deaths attributed to cardiovascular disease as a percentage of all diving deaths within that age group: Age: 20-29 30-39 40-49 50-59 60-69 70-79, CVD 1.4percent 4.1percent 17.6percent 35percent 37.8percent 27.3percent, Common findings at autopsy included coronary atherosclerosis, left ventricular hypertrophy, and evidence of acute or remote myocardial infarction. CONCLUSIONS: Cardiovascular disease contributes to many fatal diving mishaps, particularly in the older diver population. Divers over the age of 45, especially those with other known risk factors for coronary artery disease, should consider obtaining a thorough physical examination, including a cardiac stress test, as part of a pre-participation evaluation to begin or continue diving.

from: Rubicon Research Repository: Item 123456789/2242
saying anxiety increases with excersize

from:http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/dspace/bitstream/123456789/6236/1/SPUMS_V9N2_4.pdf
Divers who cope successfully with psychological stress generally display most
of the following characteristics.3 They possess an accurate perspective of the
risks and benefits attendant to diving and actively seek out the latest
information regarding diver equipment, training, and safety. These divers are
able to express freely both positive and negative feelings and can tolerate
frustration. When faced with a difficult problem, these men break down the
problem into manageable bits and work through them one bit at a time; they accept
assistance from others and show flexibility and willingness to change.
Successful divers are in tune with their physical state, can pace themselves
and are able to recognize the onset of fatigue and the accompanying tendencies
toward disorganization. Finally, divers who can cope with psychological stress
have a basic trust in themselves and possess a basic optimism about life. Valid
trust in one’s ability as a diver to cope with stress is arrived at through hard
work and intensive preparation. Successful experience in coping with stressors
during Navy diving training is a good insurance policy.

So there is some reasearch/facts. Rubicon is a wonderful resource.

I'm saying fitness and health are one of several important tools for diver safety.

 

[116fire]

Originally Posted by Web Monkey
I'm sure this will make all the rebreather folks livid, but rebreathers that don't monitor and alarm on actual, measured, out-of-bounds O2 and CO2 are just accidents waiting to happen. You need to know exactly what you're actually breathing, not just what you think you're breathing.
And how many rebreathers do that?

One. Apoc

 

[lulubelle]

116fire

No need to quote DAN on health related matters, or to try to convince me that CV health is important to diving, I live next door to DAN and am a medical professional myself.

I think you missed my point. My point was that your definition of fit is rather narrow and has a particular "look". Fit can be found in many shapes and sizes (no one said all shapes and sizes, just a lot). I won't dive with someone who isn't "fit" either. My other point is that you created this thread in the context of diver deaths which have not been associated with lack of diver fitness. Go back and read your original post.

Speaking of...off to the gym to spar.

 

[116fire]

I have to apologize to every one.

My initial post was meant to be inflamatory. I want people to think.

As I said in the first post, I think practice, education and fitness all are important to diver safety.

I am somewhat unique in that I am exposed to extreme stress at work on a regualar basis. So I'm fairly good at dealing with it. I think what else can I do to be a safer diver. My answer is to educate myself and become fitter and more comfortable in the water.

There are all kinds of tricks for dealing with mental states. My favorite resource on the subject is "Thinking body, dancing Mind" I forget the author.

People on this board my not notice, but rebreather divers have been dying in droves, "The Straw..." is my response to this.

Try a underwater hockey, it will make you more comfortable in the water, and fitter.

Stay safe.

 

[walke121]

Try a underwater hockey, it will make you more comfortable in the water, and fitter.

Or actually just go diving... I think actual experience will make you a better diver than playing Marco Polo.

 

[HowardE]

I have to apologize to every one.

My initial post was meant to be inflamatory. I want people to think.

As I said in the first post, I think practice, education and fitness all are important to diver safety.

I am somewhat unique in that I am exposed to extreme stress at work on a regualar basis. So I'm fairly good at dealing with it. I think what else can I do to be a safer diver. My answer is to educate myself and become fitter and more comfortable in the water.

There are all kinds of tricks for dealing with mental states. My favorite resource on the subject is "Thinking body, dancing Mind" I forget the author.

People on this board my not notice, but rebreather divers have been dying in droves, "The Straw..." is my response to this.

Try a underwater hockey, it will make you more comfortable in the water, and fitter.

Stay safe.

Ok... so you got people incited. Not everyone agrees with your logic.

Rebreather divers are dying in droves? A lot more people die on OC each year. It just so happens that there were recently 3 in the last few weeks... The causes haven't even been determined, and you're going off on physical fitness or lack thereof as the cause.

You think people on "this board" may not notice? Look around. Almost every single scuba accident is discussed on "this board" and people discuss and learn.

As the popularity of recreational rebreather use grows, so will the mortality rate.

Telling everyone to get off the couch and play underwater hockey doesn't really fly with all of the arguments you made to support yours and other's people's claims like panic happens because people are fat.

While I haven't disagreed with the premise that good physical fitness is important; your overall arguments are kind of thin. You came here to incite (on internet forums... that called Trolling).

I read your threads on the "other boards" and people just patted you on the back. Apparently that's not what happened here. We can all learn from this discussion here.. maybe even you?

 

[idocsteve]

No matter what is said it is met with some kind of rebuttal (some have substance to them most don't). It has been said that fitness is important but apparantly eveyone here feels it is the most important thing.

It amazes me how that so many people will argue with even the top divers on the board no matter how flimsy the argument.

Your implication that "top divers" know more about physical fitness and the obvious and subtle effects on diving and emergency situations is insulting at best and wrong at worst...(I think that's how the expression goes).

I never said fitness is THE most important thing so wrong again..that's twice.

I said, and I'll repeat it again, that a fit diver will be less likely to get in a crisis that was caused by over exertion in the first place, and if they DID end up in a crisis they will be more able to cope with a crisis situation that was either caused by over exertion or one that might require above average physical fitness than an obese couch potato diver.

I do believe I erred earlier when I stated that most diving accidents are caused by diver panic, in fact most are due to a diver being out of shape and having a heart attack that was induced by the physical stress of a dive and it's possibly that it would have happened anyway, although probably not in the midst of a competitive game of miniature golf for example.

 

[walke121]

Your implication that "top divers" know more about physical fitness and the obvious and subtle effects on diving and emergency situations is insulting at best and wrong at worst...(I think that's how the expression goes).

I never said fitness is THE most important thing so wrong again..that's twice.

I said, and I'll repeat it again, that a fit diver will be more likely able to cope with a crisis situation that was either caused by over exertion or one that might require above average physical fitness.

I do believe I erred earlier when I stated that most diving accidents are caused by diver panic, in fact most are due to a diver being out of shape and having heart attacks or other co-morbid conditions that only become apparent during the physical stress of a dive and it's possibly that they would have happened anyway, although probably not in the midst of a competitive game of miniature golf.

For all of you fitness advocates on this thread you sure spend a lot of time on the computer because it doesn't take you long to respond.

 

[Jeff Toorish]

I'm sure this will make all the rebreather folks livid, but rebreathers that don't monitor and alarm on actual, measured, out-of-bounds O2 and CO2 are just accidents waiting to happen. You need to know exactly what you're actually breathing, not just what you think you're breathing.

Terry

Terry,

Not to be livid or anything, but your statement about rebreathers sort of reminds me of when a journalist writes about a diver's "oxygen" tank.

All modern rebreathers monitor O2 with redundant oxygen sensors. Many rebreather divers use redundant computers as well. Until recently, an underwater CO2 monitor did not exist. One has recently (finally!!) been developed but is currently available on only one unit (to my knowledge).

I can safely say that CCR divers have been eagerly waiting for someone to invent a stand alone CO2 monitor. Pretty much every CCR diver would like to have a CO2 monitor on their unit.

All CCR training involves constant monitoring of breathing gas and rapidly identifying any associated issues. When it comes to education, rebreather training is relatively intense and involved.

In my opinion, the recent deaths on rebreathers would most likely have occurred on open circuit involving the same gas mixes.

It is also important to remember that rebreather divers practice bailout and carry far more redundancy than open circuit divers.

The simple fact is,there is a double standard at work here. When someone dies on a rebreather, the first question is, "what unit was he on?" But when an open circuit divers dies, I have never heard anyone say, "what regulators was he using, what kind of tank?"

I have, of course, read reports suggesting there was plenty of "oxygen" in his tank.

Dive safely.

Jeff