The straw that broke the divers back.

[Rhone Man]

550 in 10 would represent pretty decent cardiovascular fitness. 22 laps of a standard olympic pool, doing each lap on average in 27.27 seconds or less. You are a fairly strong swimmer if you can accomplish that without fins.

 

[Rick Murchison]

This is an interesting thread...
I'm reminded of an adventure I had when I was a teenager, swimming competitively, in tip-top shape, etc...
My friend Leonard & I wanted to go hunting, and asked my grandfather and his brother, both in their 70's, to take us. Leonard and I mentioned to one another that we'd have to take it easy on the old men 'cause we knew they wouldn't be able to keep up if we went at our usual pace.
It was a bitter cold morning after a rain and cold front the day before; ice crystals pushing up out of the now frozen ground holding up little rocks on silver pillars - beautiful. As we entered the woods around 0600 Leonard and I were a bit impatient at the old men's slow pace, but they knew the land so we stuck fairly close. By 10AM we were frozen, and basically begged the old men to let us stop, build a fire & warm up before going on. After we'd warmed up we pressed on... by lunchtime we were satisfied that the 'old man pace' was a good one; by the time we came back out of the woods around 4 we were exhausted, cold, and struggling to keep up with those old coots!
In diving, being in decent shape is important, but using the water and the equipment to your advantage, pacing yourself, knowing the "lay of the land" and avoiding situations that require extreme exertion is even more important. Doubly important in any emergency or rescue situation. Easing someone to the surface rather than hauling them there... that sort of thing.
I'm nearly 62, and will never regain the strength or the shape I used to have, but I often have to slow down so the young fit bucks can keep up, or end the dive 'cause they're at gas limits first
However... I must say when considering currents with nothing to hang on to, the only effective way I've found to handle those as I get older is to just not get into a position to fight 'em, or be willing to set a lower abort current speed.
And I find the biggest fish I'm willing to shoot is about a fifth the size it used to be
Rick

 

[idocsteve]

What does it take to become an "idoc" these days?

4 years of college with a Bachelors degree or higher in biology and 4 years of optometry school including a clinical externship in the last year, and passing practical and written examinations.

From what I understand optometry is rapidly becoming one of the top professions in the country due to flexibility of work environments and 6 figure income right out of school, therefore the requirements to enter optometry school are even more rigid then when I applied some 24 years ago. Back in the day I had a 3.3+ GPA but nowadays you need much higher than that, and the OCAT scores need to be way up there too.

Money Magazines best jobs

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2006/snapshots/22.html

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The straw that broke the divers back
Or
I really don’t want another diver to die
By Kevin Ward

Today I read about another dead diver, this time on the mighty O. I am sorry for all the friends and families left behind. I am sorry that I didn’t do this earlier. It may not do any good, but all a man can do try. Here is my attempt.

We owe it to ourselves to be in shape, be intelligent about our activities and our limitations.

If you are a couch potato, a disgusting fat body, gravely ill etc. You should take care of yourself for the sake of your friends and family, and those of us who may have to go into harms way to help if you get yourself into trouble.

If you choose to do a little recreational paddling around in warm calm shallow waters to look at fish, Ok. You will be safer and enjoy yourself more if you are fit, and not in danger of dieing.

But as you stray from that PADI dream world, you must hold yourself to a higher standard.

If you are “tech” diving if you don’t hold yourself to a much higher standard, you are an irresponsible careless ********.
This is not to say even if we were all supermen (and women) there wouldn’t be mishaps. On the contrary diving, and especially extreme diving are inherently dangerous. But that doesn’t absolve YOU of responsibility to maximize your chances of survival. And being a “BETTER” diver will increase your enjoyment of even relaxing rec diving.

So for an extreme diver you (should) already know this. To all divers, reasons to be a BETTER: Your in shape, comfortable in the water, and your skills are better. So your air lasts longer, you are relaxed, better able to appreciate the sights that we are there to see. You are able to deal with unexpected evens better, calmly. You are more likely to be able to help another.

So how do we know what a BETTER safer diver is?

I have heard from “old timers” about YMCA cert that took months with many days of skills training, and lots of induced stress.

I heard a story from an instructor about a CMAS training program, one of the drills was dive to the bottom of the pool, put a mask on off the bottom and clear it 3 times on one breath, surface.

Watch the Costner/Kutchner movie about Coast guard rescue divers. Or one of those discovery Channel seal training shows. Not that most of us will get anywhere near that level, but if you can handle that sort of artificial stress and high levels of exertion, it will make you a better diver.

Do drills, try to do them perfectly. Take all you gear off and put in on again, do it with good buoyancy, staying in the same spot in the pool or quarry, do it with no wasted motion.

There is a test from a life guard web page: 1) Swim 550 yards continuously using 200 yards of front crawl, 200 yards of breaststroke and 150 yard s of front crawl or breaststroke.
2) Start in the water, swim 20 yards using front crawl or breaststroke, surface dive 7 -10 feet, retrieve a 10 lb. Brick, return to the surface, swim 20 yards back to the starting point with the brick in both hands and exit the water without using a ladder or steps within 1 minute, 40 seconds. 3) Swim 5 yards, submerge and retrieve three dive rings placed 5 yards apart in 4-7 feet of water, resurface and swim 5 yards to the side of the pool.

I offer these examples so it doesn’t look like I pulled my suggestions out of thin air. To further add background, I have been a firefighter in a poor busy area of Chicago for over ten years, doing a lot of ALS medical runs. I was also on Air Sea Rescue in Chicago, for which among other things, included jumping out of a helicopter with scuba gear at night in December into lake Michigan. I am a trimix rebreather diver, I have build a rebreather, and a fill station in my garage.

My suggestions to be a BETTER diver:

Medical: Have a physical once a year. Have a stress test.

Physical: Swim, dive swim some more. If you are a technical diver you should be able to swim 550 yards in under 10 min. You should be able to swim 25yards, underwater, say 3 times on a 1 min interval. Pick up a 10# weight off the bottom and carry it up to the surface, hold it out of the water and tread water for 10 sec. Static breath hold in water for 60 sec. Just examples, and its not so much the actual standards, but that you are on the journey.
Cardio 3 times a week 30 min. This is too light if you are exceeding rec limits. Then more like a 90 min 4 times a week plus some weights, abs etc.

Just because you are certified, doesn’t mean you are educated. Learn read…

The standards for OW are dangerously low. If you don’t keep learning and practicing, you are asking for trouble.

For all the silliness surrounding DIR/GUE--(drink the Kool-Aid) They are a wonderful resource. I think their classes a bit expensive, but very sound. Take a fundies class, at least go on their web site and buy the material and read it. Their attitude towards basic skills is outstanding. Trim, buoyancy skills. When is the last time you did an OOA drill with your buddy--if the answer wasn’t the last dive we did together, it was wrong.

And of course you are CPR certified and some sort of basic first aid right?

So when there is a tech diving mishap, our after dive analysis should start like this:

Well His last stress test/and physical where clear. And even though there was a ripping current the only one who beat him back to the boat was Phelps. We see his equipment was in perfect shape and the predive check list was in order. The dive plan was flawless, and his buddy was right there to provide moral support when the hang nail occurred at depth. First aid consisting of a band aid and cold beer was administered on the boat ride back in and an emergency manicure scheduled.

Lastly I would like to put a good word in for underwater hockey. I have been playing this silly looking but great sport for a while. It will motivate you, and make you fit. Its like a good game of basketball or what ever your sport is. I go and chase the puck around the bottom of the pool for an hour and a half and don’t even realize I am getting a work out. It will make you comfortable in the water like nothing else.
The link for my club: Chicago Underwater Hockey - UWH History
The US link: USOA Underwater Hockey


Panic: If your life depends on it, you better not. If it doesn’t, why panic.
Please stay safe.

Posted on RBW, Deco stop, SB

Hmmmm ... wonder how many of the twenty-something folks who thanked you for this post could meet your physical criteria ... not many, I'd bet.

Seems highly unlikely if at all possible.

Either you're in good physical shape with great aerobic fitness and muscle tone OR you're an obese out of shape couch potato.

How can you be both?

Think so? Tell ya what ... meet me in Florida in mid-February. We'll go to Ginnie Springs and dive the mainline together. Let's see who hits turn pressure first ... or turns the dive on "tired" ...

Last week when I was there ... diving with younger, fitter divers ... I consistently came out of the water with the most remaining air.

I was also the one who, at Merritt's Mill Pond, walked my doubles up the hill while the younger, fitter divers waited for the ATV with the trailer to haul theirs up for them.

By the way, I'm 5'9" and 240 lbs, and will be 58 in a coupla months.

Walk the talk or shut up.

Try a underwater hockey, it will make you more comfortable in the water, and fitter.

Try diving a lot ... it will make you more comfortable in the water, and fitter. More importantly, it'll help you learn how to use your equipment properly and make better decisions about how to conduct your dive.

Most diver mishaps are a chain of mistakes and equipment failures. And in my opinion, in the vast majority of them better fitness would have helped.

Most diver mishaps have their origins in decisions that were made before the diver(s) ever got in the water. The vast majority of diver mishaps aren't because the diver wasn't in good shape, they're because the diver didn't make good decisions. Some of those decisions involve diving in conditions they weren't physically prepared for, but more involved diving in conditions they weren't mentally prepared for, either due to a lack of experience or training.

I bet lots of fat people like to dive...because in the water everyone is weightless, and for once they're on the same playing field as the rest of us.

Until:

- The get into some current that's moving them in the wrong direction
- They surface from a shore dive and find the tide is pulling them out to sea
- They are trying to board the dive boat in pitching seas
- They're trying to outswim a great white shark and they've got a fit buddy such as myself who realizes that all he has to do is outswim his fat buddy and not the shark

That's for starters

Come dive with me in Puget Sound anytime ... I got a nice wall out in the Tacoma Narrows I'd like to introduce you to. It'd be interesting to see if you can keep up, much less "outswim your fat buddy".

Walk the talk or shut up.

Clearly one does not have to be an athlete or body builder to dive. On the other hand, diving is not recommended for true "couch potatoes" either.

Surprisingly, the majority of divers fall somewhere in between these two extremes of the continuum.

Yes, since it has been concluded beyond a reasonable doubt that the better a diver's fitness level, the greater the chance of survival in a crisis, and since doing more sit-ups increases your fitness level the it naturally follows that the chance of survival in a scuba diving crisis is directly proportional to the number of sit-ups you do on a regular basis.

What a load of unmitigated BS.

Your chance of survival in a scuba diving crisis is directly proportional to your ability to follow your training, keep a rational sense about you, and follow through on a reasonable response to the situation. Your chance of survival is even greater if you can plan and conduct yourself in a way as to avoid the necessity for all that in the first place.

One can do those things without ever having done a single sit-up.

This is an interesting thread...
I'm reminded of an adventure I had when I was a teenager, swimming competitively, in tip-top shape, etc...
My friend Leonard & I wanted to go hunting, and asked my grandfather and his brother, both in their 70's, to take us. Leonard and I mentioned to one another that we'd have to take it easy on the old men 'cause we knew they wouldn't be able to keep up if we went at our usual pace.
It was a bitter cold morning after a rain and cold front the day before; ice crystals pushing up out of the now frozen ground holding up little rocks on silver pillars - beautiful. As we entered the woods around 0600 Leonard and I were a bit impatient at the old men's slow pace, but they knew the land so we stuck fairly close. By 10AM we were frozen, and basically begged the old men to let us stop, build a fire & warm up before going on. After we'd warmed up we pressed on... by lunchtime we were satisfied that the 'old man pace' was a good one; by the time we came back out of the woods around 4 we were exhausted, cold, and struggling to keep up with those old coots!
In diving, being in decent shape is important, but using the water and the equipment to your advantage, pacing yourself, knowing the "lay of the land" and avoiding situations that require extreme exertion is even more important. Doubly important in any emergency or rescue situation. Easing someone to the surface rather than hauling them there... that sort of thing.
I'm nearly 62, and will never regain the strength or the shape I used to have, but I often have to slow down so the young fit bucks can keep up, or end the dive 'cause they're at gas limits first
However... I must say when considering currents with nothing to hang on to, the only effective way I've found to handle those as I get older is to just not get into a position to fight 'em, or be willing to set a lower abort current speed.
And I find the biggest fish I'm willing to shoot is about a fifth the size it used to be
Rick

Leave it to an old bull to lend this discussion some proper sense of perspective ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[idocsteve]

Think so? Tell ya what ... meet me in Florida in mid-February. We'll go to Ginnie Springs and dive the mainline together. Let's see who hits turn pressure first ... or turns the dive on "tired" ...

Last week when I was there ... diving with younger, fitter divers ... I consistently came out of the water with the most remaining air.

By the way, I'm 5'9" and 240 lbs, and will be 58 in a coupla months.

Walk the talk or shut up.

I knew you were an obese couch potato before I even got to this part..lol

Listen NW, I'd really like to take you up on your various offers, however I do not have the level of training to do that sort of dive and do so would be reckless and irresponsible, which is exactly what you are for suggesting a cave dive to an untrained diver.

I got a much Better idea, you come to ME and we'll do a few laps around the track behind the high school. When you drop to the tarmac gasping and sputtering because you've eaten too much, drank too much, and used the treadmill to hang your laundry on, you can apologize to me, and just maybe I'll help you to your feet.

Regardless of how well you do on your dives, your risk of heart attack is significantly higher than those younger fitter guys you "out breathe" on your dives, and should you find yourself in a situation requiring more than your usual amount of exertion, you'd be much better off without that 80 or so extra pounds hanging over your cumberbun.

"Jog the track with me or shut up"

-Regards

idocsteve

 

[BettyRubble]

Am I the only one seeing the bleeding horse carcass in the corner?

 

[idocsteve]

Your chance of survival in a scuba diving crisis is directly proportional to your ability to follow your training, keep a rational sense about you, and follow through on a reasonable response to the situation. Your chance of survival is even greater if you can plan and conduct yourself in a way as to avoid the necessity for all that in the first place.

One can do those things without ever having done a single sit-up.

Being physically fit and doing all of the things you mention in your quote above are not mutually exclusive, my weight challenged friend.

Your odds of survival are even greater if you're all those things you state in your post AND you are in good physical shape. That's been my point all along, but you old overweight codgers refuse to understand that simple point.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I knew you were an obese couch potato before I even got to this part..lol

Listen NW, I'd really like to take you up on your various offers, however I do not have the level of training to do that sort of dive and do so would be reckless and irresponsible, which is exactly what you are for suggesting a cave dive to an untrained diver.

I got a much Better idea, you come to ME and we'll do a few laps around the track behind the high school. When you drop to the tarmac gasping and sputtering because you've eaten too much, drank too much, and used the treadmill to hang your laundry on, you can apologize to me, and just maybe I'll help you to your feet.

Regardless of how well you do on your dives, your risk of heart attack is significantly higher than those younger fitter guys you "out breathe" on your dives, and should you find yourself in a situation requiring more than your usual amount of exertion, you'd be much better off without that 80 or so extra pounds hanging over your cumberbun.

"Jog the track with me or shut up"

-Regards

idocsteve

I don't dive on a track ... you are basing your statements on premises that show a distinct lack of understanding about what causes or mitigates diving accidents.

Physical exertion in diving is due to inefficient technique ... you are in an environment where gravity has little to nothing to do with it. The "rules" you apply toward your physical conditioning don't reduce your risk of a diving accident ... nor increase your chances of surviving one ... nearly to the extent that good training and decision-making do.

Neither are your assumptions valid. I run, bike, and exercise regularly ... otherwise I'd never contemplate doing some of the dives I do.

You could, no doubt, run circles around me on land. Underwater, however, I'd put good money on being able to outperform you in any condition a diver is likely to have to deal with.

Been there, done that. I don't need to brag or put other people down to feel good about myself ... I walk the talk.

Do you?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[idocsteve]

I don't dive on a track ...

And I don't dive in a cave.

Neither do your assumptions. I run, bike, and exercise regularly ... otherwise I'd never contemplate doing some of the dives I do.

Then why are you so overweight? Seriously that's a legitimate question.

You could, no doubt, run circles around me on land. Underwater, however, I'd put good money on being able to outperform you in any condition a diver is likely to have to deal with.

I don't doubt that for a moment. Your level of diving experience more than compensates for any edge I might have over you due to fitness level. In fact I NEVER suggested that being fit was MORE important than dive experience, I would tend to agree that Dive Experience is the more important of the two factors but again they are NOT mutually exclusive and two divers with the same experience and skill level and all other variables being the same...the more fit diver would have the greater chance of survival in a crisis and be less likely to suffer a heart attack while diving.

Been there, done that. I don't need to brag or put other people down to feel good about myself ...Do you?

Where am I "putting down" other people or "bragging"? Except for my joke about other divers mistaking the big dude for the boat and him causing a Tsunami when he did a giant stride into the water but that was more along the lines of "good natured ribbing", directed at no one in particular.

In fact I'm 6' 1" and weigh about 225, when I was exercising regularly I was down around 195 so I carry an extra 20-30 lbs on my belt as well, although I'm not "fat", I'm certainly no fitness guru.

 

[Web Monkey]

Then why are you so overweight? Seriously that's a legitimate question.

Why do you weigh what you weigh?

Barring a huge, permanent lifestyle change (swapping a desk job for a manual warehouse job, for example), people weigh what they weigh, and only minimal changes are actually possible on a permanent basis.

Terry