The straw that broke the divers back.

[OldNSalty]

If you are over-weight then you know you are not as healthy as you should be. You, just like all divers, need to consider your fitness level and if you find it lacking, do something about it...but stop living in denial. Just becasue someone might make a BC in size 3X does not mean that it is a good idea that you dive.

 

[Hetland]

It has been concluded beyond a reasonable doubt that the better a diver's fitness level, the greater the chance of survival in a crisis.

Where? Who concluded this? How is "crisis" defined?

In fact, since it has been already proven that better fitness decreases panic, it can be concluded that a diver is less likely to panic and bolt for the surface while holding their breath if they are more fit.

Where? Who concluded this? Do YOU really believe this? Training and experience keep you from holding your breath, not sit-ups.

At the very least I can safely state that fitness is NOT irrelevant when it comes to a diver holding their breath on ascent (which is usually a result of panic).

It is. The air trapped in your lungs will expand period. How that air gets trapped depends on your airway. If you are conscious, then your brain makes the decision, not your abs.

So you are suggesting what?
That the guy who is in the worse physical shape has a better chance of surviving a crisis? That's absurd.

In this instance, physical shape had nothing to do with injury. If you hold your breath and ascend, physical shape will have nothing to do with the injury. If you have a stroke, it may be because your heart is in bad shape, or it may be because you were born with a defect in your circulatory system. If you didn't pay attention in your nitrox class, and you have a seizure at depth, what the hell does that have to do with sit-ups?

Given two identical scenarios presented to two different divers, and in one, a diver is very experienced and skilled, but fat and out of shape, and the other one is relatively inexperienced and is a "poor diver" (whatever that means), but in great shape, then perhaps the fat / skilled / experienced guy is going to come out ahead.

I would put my money on the overweight diver without hesitation. I'm not saying fitness isn't important, I'm saying that training and experience is what keeps divers alive.

Ideally speaking a diver is skilled, experienced, AND in good physical shape.

At Last We agree on something!

Such a diver would be exponentially more likely to do best in a crisis than anyone else

How many times have you been in a crisis? I used to do it for a living, and waist size is not an indicator of levelheadedness.

and less likely to suffer a heart attack

We Agree Again!

(which is a commonality in MANY diving accidents), and I can't imagine anyone in their right mind will argue this last point even though I can't give solid "proof" to back it up.

How were those heart attacks caused? Did the diver have a PFO? arrhythmia? Did he do a couple of lines the night before? Was he on sinus medication that could have produced a higher heart rate? Are the number of heart attack deaths while diving statistically significantly? Beating a dead horse here a bit, but panic and/or overexertion did not cause 100% of these heart attacks. Marathon runners drop dead too.

 

[OldNSalty]

This argument...excuse me, debate reminds me of a few years back when the tabacco executives were called before congress and tried to argue that 'smoking is bad for you' is unproven or at least, very debatable. The entire world was laughing....yep, if I can dive right after I smoke I must be in better shape then you exercising, non-smoking divers.

 

[BettyRubble]

Not shocked this thread got off the beaten track a bit, but interestingly this is one stance I can live with. Before I cert'd I considered myself to be in decent shape and worked out once or twice a week. And probably met the 'eye' test of the OP although I am by no means in great shape. Then I hit the open water and holy fudge monkeys . . . did I learn quickly that I needed more cardio, more leg work and a heck of alot more diver education.

Could I dive the way I was .. yep . . . but for my safety and stamina I realized that I needed to step up the workouts. Now I hit the gym or hike as much as 6 days a week and have included swimming laps into the routine.

Anyone can decide to dive under whatever conditions and circumstances they so choose. But your outcome is better (both more enjoyable and safer) if you are in decent physical condition. So for me the OPs point of being focused on conditioning and education is a good one.

For those of us who need to work on it, this is a good wake up. For those who feel our physical and/or diving 'shape' is acceptable, that is great. We each make that decision for ourselves.

 

[idocsteve]

Where? Who concluded this? Do YOU really believe this? Training and experience keep you from holding your breath, not sit-ups.

It is. The air trapped in your lungs will expand period. How that air gets trapped depends on your airway. If you are conscious, then your brain makes the decision, not your abs.

In this instance, physical shape had nothing to do with injury. If you hold your breath and ascend, physical shape will have nothing to do with the injury.

Most if not all of the questions in your last post are answered in the medical fitness for diving guidelines, the link is HERE

These sections specifically:

2) Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit.

3) Physical fitness reduces the risk of heart attack, which is a major cause of diving fatality.

Our debate has come full circle and there's really nothing more than can be said at this point. If you can't grasp the simple concept that a fit diver is less likely to succumb to panic and suffer an injury such as an embolism due to an uncontrolled ascent while holding their breath; and an obese out of shape diver is more likely to suffer a heart attack while diving than one who is in good physical shape; then there's nothing more that myself or anyone else can say that's going to get you to see it any differently.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Most if not all of the questions in your last post are answered in the medical fitness for diving guidelines, the link is HERE

These sections specifically:

2) Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit.

3) Physical fitness reduces the risk of heart attack, which is a major cause of diving fatality.

Our debate has come full circle and there's really nothing more than can be said at this point. If you can't grasp the simple concept that a fit diver is less likely to succumb to panic and suffer an injury such as an embolism due to an uncontrolled ascent while holding their breath; and an obese out of shape diver is more likely to suffer a heart attack while diving than one who is in good physical shape; then there's nothing more that myself or anyone else can say that's going to get you to see it any differently.

I agree with most of what you say, but, speaking as a person with a BMI in the obese range... Being overweight (or large) does not present as many disadvantages underwater as on land. Think of the marine mammals.. Excellent divers, lots of muscle mass, layers of fat and they are still move through the water pretty well.

A diver who works out doing weight training and cardio exercise can be in reasonably good shape and be quite athletic, even though they are carrying around an extra 30 lbs. Not that it is healthy for them, but you can't really argue against the fact that the bouyancy provided by the water can mitigate the extra work associated with dragging this extra weight around.

In addition, in most dive conditions, having an extra layer of blubber provides significant thermal protection and this might be beneficial in a dive accident where the diver would have to spend extended periods in cold water. In addition the round guy might be able to wear less wetsuit thickness and this is certainly an advantage when you consider the undesirable effects of wetsuit compression.

Quite often heavier people who are active, tend to attain more muscle mass than some thinner people. Having a reserve of muscular strength can be beneficial when handling heavy scuba gear on a boat.

The additional hydrodynamic drag asscoiated with a bigger gut (or fat ass) is probably insignificant compared to the drag from the scuba unit itself and often, heavy people have very strong legs and can kick better than skinny, little people, especially if they engage in athletic training.

Americans are way too fat and out of shape, but it is quite possible to be a pretty good diver and still have weight to loose. I suspect that the biggest drawback (from a diving perspective) of the extra fat might be associated with inert gas absorption and diffusion, but even that might be mitigated by having a high level of cadio fitness.

 

[bsee65]

I agree with most of what you say, but, speaking as a person with a BMI in the obese range... Being overweight (or large) does not present as many disadvantages underwater as on land. Think of the marine mammals.. Excellent divers, lots of muscle mass, layers of fat and they are still move through the water pretty well.

I'm in the same category, but I regularly spin a Lifecycle while maintaining above 110 RPM for 60 minutes. In my mid-40s, I can bike 100 road miles in under 6 hours. I have taken a number of fitness tests and my cardio performance is typical of someone in their mid to late 20s. I have a resting pulse of 52. Am I thin? heck no, but I'm fitter than most people I know with BMI numbers in the normal range.

 

[deco_martini]

I'm in the same category, but I regularly spin a Lifecycle while maintaining above 110 RPM for 60 minutes. In my mid-40s, I can bike 100 road miles in under 6 hours. I have taken a number of fitness tests and my cardio performance is typical of someone in their mid to late 20s. I have a resting pulse of 52. Am I thin? heck no, but I'm fitter than most people I know with BMI numbers in the normal range.

Its simple logic:
Bad cardiovascular fitness increases your chance of a dive fatality.
Obesity is an easy way to identify divers who are out of shape.

There are chain smokers who live into their 90's.
And there are obese people in good cardiovascular shape.

So despite your existence, the profile is generally true.

 

[vladimir]

The correlation between fitness and panic is a far stretch.

Panic doesn't happen because someone can't swim fast enough or do enough pushups, it happens because they're not properly dealing with stress and it's cause(s). Physical conditioning has little do do with this, assuming the diver isn't being stressed out by the normal part of the dive.

Terry

Fitness is irrelevant in breath holding.

I guess the reason this thread irritates me so much is because I get the impression that some people believe that the number of sit-ups you do is directly proportional to your chance of survival..... Apparently because you are more likely to panic if you're obese.

^ The 3 posts above have been disproven by the following quote:

2) Physically fit people tend to use less air than the unfit. Hyperventilation and panic stress reactions are more likely to occur in the physically unfit.

What does it take to become an "idoc" these days? I ask because it is unusual for somebody with a background in science (or fluency in English, for that matter) to use the word "disproven [sic]," when what they mean is, "a guy who wrote an article for GUE agrees with me." I don't necessarily disagree with the guy who wrote the article, but the statements you quoted were not disproved, nor was there much evidence presented to contradict them.

 

[Notso_Ken]

I called my instructor on this one, but the standards for PADI DM are to swim 800M in less that 13 minutes. Not to mention the 1200M snorkel in 15 minutes or the 10 minute water tread.

So 550M in 10 minutes is a breeze.

Swimming underwater would be real easy with fins for 25M, even with less than 1 minute surface intervals.

I think that his recommendations are not something unattainable by most. They should be something that all divers should aspire to.

Nope, those are NOT the PADI DM standards. Try 400 under 10, and 800 snorkeling under 18. But then, they are also scored on a 5 point scale, so you can make up a couple points on the treading for not making the swim or snorkel in quite those times. Been there done that. 550 under 10 is WAY beyond the PADi (or any other agency) DM or instructor requirements.

Ken