Now there's a word picture.Mo2vation:
The stairs at Casino Point (griping and venting thread)
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PhotoTJ
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mccabejc:
Courtesy is a fine thing. Nice to know there are those who have standards!
Arnaud
Contributor
Well, now that I am an instructor, I'm going to have a hard time blaming students creating the line. Actually, my groups have been pretty good at getting in and out of the water quickly. The problem is at low tide; two extra steps at the bottom would do wonder.
In the meantime, most of the problems come when the instructor is waiting for their students in the water, letting them figure out on their own how to jump in.
Now, I think it's a matter of courtesy or plain common sense, or both. If someone is having a hard time at the bottom of the stairs, they should be helped. But if it's just a group having a discussion on the merits of the HUB, therefore preventing anyone else from getting in the water, just go around them.
Re: the "feeble and obese", they should have no business on those stairs anyway. As for the "non-DIR, people not named Ken or Arnaud", they are welcome any time. While they weren't blessed with a beautiful first name, one can always hope that they will see the light and be open to a different, if not better, dive style...
In the meantime, most of the problems come when the instructor is waiting for their students in the water, letting them figure out on their own how to jump in.
Now, I think it's a matter of courtesy or plain common sense, or both. If someone is having a hard time at the bottom of the stairs, they should be helped. But if it's just a group having a discussion on the merits of the HUB, therefore preventing anyone else from getting in the water, just go around them.
Re: the "feeble and obese", they should have no business on those stairs anyway. As for the "non-DIR, people not named Ken or Arnaud", they are welcome any time. While they weren't blessed with a beautiful first name, one can always hope that they will see the light and be open to a different, if not better, dive style...
OP
Reeveseye
Contributor
I agree with Arnaud - classes are not the biggest part of the problem. Obviously a large group of students is going to take longer to clear the steps, and yes, they're slow and clumsy newbies. But I can't talk too much trash about that since "slow and clumsy newbie" was an accurate description of me and everyone else on this board at one time or another.
As for sightseeing snorkelers who treat the stairs like a lookout point, I'm with mccabejc and Mo2vation. Politeness only goes so far, and it should go BOTH ways. Most of the time, I see instructors telling their classes to get in and out as quickly as possible, since there are others waiting. They're at least making a good-faith effort to teach their students basic dive courtesy. But the clueless dingbats who don't quite understand the meaning of "DIVE PARK" and think the stairs are a great place to hang out, B.S. with each other, and enjoy the scenery are a different story entirely. In their case, Mo2vation has a good point - what obligation are we under to put up with nonsense like that? Over the rail with them!
And good call, Arnaud - two more steps at the bottom would be a huge help. There's a reason I took up diving instead of mountain climbing - mainly because I DON'T LIKE TO CLIMB THINGS! Even the most experienced divers get held up at the bottom of the stairs on low tide days, as everyone painstakingly billy-goats their way up and over the slimy rocks. My wife and I are taking the NAUI Advanced course at the moment, and one day at Casino Point our instructor insisted on us exiting at any spot other than the stairs, so we'd have to become proficient at rock climbing in dive gear without killing ourselves. We didn't like doing it at the time, but now I'm glad we did. The next time there's a low tide day with a holdup on the stairs, I'll just exit the old-fashioned way over the easiest-looking rocks.
As for sightseeing snorkelers who treat the stairs like a lookout point, I'm with mccabejc and Mo2vation. Politeness only goes so far, and it should go BOTH ways. Most of the time, I see instructors telling their classes to get in and out as quickly as possible, since there are others waiting. They're at least making a good-faith effort to teach their students basic dive courtesy. But the clueless dingbats who don't quite understand the meaning of "DIVE PARK" and think the stairs are a great place to hang out, B.S. with each other, and enjoy the scenery are a different story entirely. In their case, Mo2vation has a good point - what obligation are we under to put up with nonsense like that? Over the rail with them!
And good call, Arnaud - two more steps at the bottom would be a huge help. There's a reason I took up diving instead of mountain climbing - mainly because I DON'T LIKE TO CLIMB THINGS! Even the most experienced divers get held up at the bottom of the stairs on low tide days, as everyone painstakingly billy-goats their way up and over the slimy rocks. My wife and I are taking the NAUI Advanced course at the moment, and one day at Casino Point our instructor insisted on us exiting at any spot other than the stairs, so we'd have to become proficient at rock climbing in dive gear without killing ourselves. We didn't like doing it at the time, but now I'm glad we did. The next time there's a low tide day with a holdup on the stairs, I'll just exit the old-fashioned way over the easiest-looking rocks.
I'd have to say my biggest complaint with the stairs is not the entry, but the exit. The first time I dove the park, I was guilty of sitting on the bottom step trying to get my fins off while everyone else bobbed around in the water waiting for me to move. I mentioned it to my instructor one day, and he about slapped me. He gave me the best advice (like he always does/did). He said to just turn around and walk up the stairs backwards with fins on and get out of the way...it works well.
Frank O
Contributor
I noticed something interesting at the Point Sunday when I was there. I got in quite quickly (suited up fast because I was freediving rather than on scuba that day). After I swam around for a while working with a new camera, I glanced back at the stairway and saw a huge traffic jam waiting to get in. Apparently it was so bad that some groups went 20 or 30 feet to the side of the stairway and started a second line doing an entry by climbing over the low wall and then walking down over the rocks to enter. Gee, I wonder if that qualified those classes for their Dangerous Rock Entry patches?
Any wonder why I do a lot of diving mid-week during the summers?
I agree with the posters who are complaining about people blocking the stairs (in both directions) because they are not prepared for what must be the simplest of beach dive entrances and exits around. It astounds me how easy the process can be if the rules are followed.
The signs say no instruction on or blocking of the stairs. Instructors need to be more aware of this and limit their instruction to topside. If a student can't remember what they're supposed to do once they hit the lower stairs, then they don't have enough short-term memory to be ready to dive IMHO.
People should be ready to hit the water by the time they reach the bottom stairs. Put on the fins on the flat deep step and slowly walk down.
My biggest beef is the classes that have their students land on the lowest stair and then sit there while the instructor or DM takes off their fins and has them crawl up the stairs. I'm sorry, but a person who expects to dive should be able to walk backwards up to the deep flat stair with their tank and fins on. If they can't handle the weight by the time they're doing their checkout dives, I don't feel they are ready to dive.
I tend to be fairly patient on the stairs. Of course I'm at the Park all the time, so a few minutes delay on one dive isn't critical. And I can always go in via the rocks as we used to do. I would strongly recommend that if an instructor wants to really teach their students how to dive, they should have them enter via the rocks several times. Some of the better instructors already do that.
The placement of the stairs has caused a funnel for entering and exiting from the water. It "forces" all the traffic through that restricted area. That is a drawback.
The thing that makes it almost impossible are the snorkelers who seem to feel they can stand on the lower stairs (on either side) and block entering or exiting divers. Then once they do get in, many stay right in the fairway between the stairs and the drop down buoys making it difficult for divers to leave or approach the stairs. On one day (mid-week!) this summer we had over 250 snorkelers. It was a disaster!!!
Although it is a public park, it is a DIVE park. Snorkelers have several other areas they can snorkeler. Most divers don't. If they use the park, snorkelers should be instructed regarding the rules (in a friendly, gentle way of course). They need to understand basic courtesy.
When someone goes ahead of me and then is not prepared to enter the water before I am, I remind them that they should be ready to enter the water if they are going to move in front of someone.
The comment on "situational awareness" is hopefully right on target (rather than being actively rude). People need to be more aware of others. This also goes for the walk to and from the park (since I no longer have that wonderful jeep I was using this summer). When I'm walking with 125 pounds of SCUBA and video gear, and there are FIVE people walking abreast towards me, I expect a few of them to yield and not expect me to jump over the fence into the water! If they don't yield, I simply tell them... I'm not stopping so it would be best to get over on your side of the sidewalk. Amazing how many people are totally shocked by that. Courtesy seems to be a dying trait whether it be on the dive stairs, the sidewalk or the freeway.
There are many good instructors, especially those who visit the park frequently, who are sensitive about these issues and try to get their students in and out quickly and safely. I always try to acknowledge those who do so as a positive "reward" (like my saying anything is a big deal).
I have done a thousand or more landings on the stairs with my videocamera in my hand. There is an easy way to do it quickly. I approach with the camera in my right hand and my left hand heading towards the fair right handrail. I grab it (if the tide ios high enough), and use it to turn my body around so my feet land on the lowest step facing towards the water. From there it is an easy walk backwards up the few steps to the flat area to take off the fins. This leaves the lower stairs clear for others to exit.
In all the times I've done this, the only times I've been concerned about my camera (or me) was when I suddenly saw the feet of divers or snorkelers landing on the lowest step as I'm approaching... because they were going down the up escalator. Grrr!
Of course this summer the numbers of divers (and visitors period) seems to be low on Catalina. Maybe the dive park problems are one reason? I'm preparing a new video (part of which was "premiered" at Dive 'n' Surf's dive club meeting last night) on diving Casino Point. It will include tips on how to follow the rules in addition to things that can be seen in the Park U/W.
Dr. Bill
I agree with the posters who are complaining about people blocking the stairs (in both directions) because they are not prepared for what must be the simplest of beach dive entrances and exits around. It astounds me how easy the process can be if the rules are followed.
The signs say no instruction on or blocking of the stairs. Instructors need to be more aware of this and limit their instruction to topside. If a student can't remember what they're supposed to do once they hit the lower stairs, then they don't have enough short-term memory to be ready to dive IMHO.
People should be ready to hit the water by the time they reach the bottom stairs. Put on the fins on the flat deep step and slowly walk down.
My biggest beef is the classes that have their students land on the lowest stair and then sit there while the instructor or DM takes off their fins and has them crawl up the stairs. I'm sorry, but a person who expects to dive should be able to walk backwards up to the deep flat stair with their tank and fins on. If they can't handle the weight by the time they're doing their checkout dives, I don't feel they are ready to dive.
I tend to be fairly patient on the stairs. Of course I'm at the Park all the time, so a few minutes delay on one dive isn't critical. And I can always go in via the rocks as we used to do. I would strongly recommend that if an instructor wants to really teach their students how to dive, they should have them enter via the rocks several times. Some of the better instructors already do that.
The placement of the stairs has caused a funnel for entering and exiting from the water. It "forces" all the traffic through that restricted area. That is a drawback.
The thing that makes it almost impossible are the snorkelers who seem to feel they can stand on the lower stairs (on either side) and block entering or exiting divers. Then once they do get in, many stay right in the fairway between the stairs and the drop down buoys making it difficult for divers to leave or approach the stairs. On one day (mid-week!) this summer we had over 250 snorkelers. It was a disaster!!!
Although it is a public park, it is a DIVE park. Snorkelers have several other areas they can snorkeler. Most divers don't. If they use the park, snorkelers should be instructed regarding the rules (in a friendly, gentle way of course). They need to understand basic courtesy.
When someone goes ahead of me and then is not prepared to enter the water before I am, I remind them that they should be ready to enter the water if they are going to move in front of someone.
The comment on "situational awareness" is hopefully right on target (rather than being actively rude). People need to be more aware of others. This also goes for the walk to and from the park (since I no longer have that wonderful jeep I was using this summer). When I'm walking with 125 pounds of SCUBA and video gear, and there are FIVE people walking abreast towards me, I expect a few of them to yield and not expect me to jump over the fence into the water! If they don't yield, I simply tell them... I'm not stopping so it would be best to get over on your side of the sidewalk. Amazing how many people are totally shocked by that. Courtesy seems to be a dying trait whether it be on the dive stairs, the sidewalk or the freeway.
There are many good instructors, especially those who visit the park frequently, who are sensitive about these issues and try to get their students in and out quickly and safely. I always try to acknowledge those who do so as a positive "reward" (like my saying anything is a big deal).
I have done a thousand or more landings on the stairs with my videocamera in my hand. There is an easy way to do it quickly. I approach with the camera in my right hand and my left hand heading towards the fair right handrail. I grab it (if the tide ios high enough), and use it to turn my body around so my feet land on the lowest step facing towards the water. From there it is an easy walk backwards up the few steps to the flat area to take off the fins. This leaves the lower stairs clear for others to exit.
In all the times I've done this, the only times I've been concerned about my camera (or me) was when I suddenly saw the feet of divers or snorkelers landing on the lowest step as I'm approaching... because they were going down the up escalator. Grrr!
Of course this summer the numbers of divers (and visitors period) seems to be low on Catalina. Maybe the dive park problems are one reason? I'm preparing a new video (part of which was "premiered" at Dive 'n' Surf's dive club meeting last night) on diving Casino Point. It will include tips on how to follow the rules in addition to things that can be seen in the Park U/W.
Dr. Bill
Everyone should have been at the Park today. For a Saturday, it was incredibly quiet... few beautiful mermaids to meet (the purpose for my surface intervals, otherwise I'd be underwater the whole time).
HOWEVER, I was near the harbor (Sujac) end of the park today with my buddy Kathy. We were 15-20 yards from the end of the park when I heard a strange noise- an outboard engine coming from inside the park and close. I stopped and looked up (in about 12' of water) to see a Rent-a-Boat pass directly over my head. I surfaced and started yelling "expletive deleteds" at the idiot, who looked back and sneered. I was starting to head towards him when I saw a harbor patrol boat coming to intercept him. He was still INSIDE the park when they got there.
Between this, and the OTHER Rent-A-Boat that entered the park an hour later, and the two that did it simultaneously several weekends ago, and the numerous kayaks, and the lacxk of etiquette on the stairs... Lorraine Sadler (charter member, Women Diver's Hall of Fame) and I are going to get together with the other instructors and dive shops here to get a standard set of rules prepared, approved by Council and posted clearly at the park.
Fortunately we now have a diver (Bob Kennedy, co-owner of ScubaLuv) on the city council so I'm sure we'll get some serious attention.
I keep saying... summer is almost over, summer is almost over.
Doc
HOWEVER, I was near the harbor (Sujac) end of the park today with my buddy Kathy. We were 15-20 yards from the end of the park when I heard a strange noise- an outboard engine coming from inside the park and close. I stopped and looked up (in about 12' of water) to see a Rent-a-Boat pass directly over my head. I surfaced and started yelling "expletive deleteds" at the idiot, who looked back and sneered. I was starting to head towards him when I saw a harbor patrol boat coming to intercept him. He was still INSIDE the park when they got there.
Between this, and the OTHER Rent-A-Boat that entered the park an hour later, and the two that did it simultaneously several weekends ago, and the numerous kayaks, and the lacxk of etiquette on the stairs... Lorraine Sadler (charter member, Women Diver's Hall of Fame) and I are going to get together with the other instructors and dive shops here to get a standard set of rules prepared, approved by Council and posted clearly at the park.
Fortunately we now have a diver (Bob Kennedy, co-owner of ScubaLuv) on the city council so I'm sure we'll get some serious attention.
I keep saying... summer is almost over, summer is almost over.
Doc
mccabejc
Contributor
I don't suppose that, while you're at it, there's any way to get the glass bottom boats banned from Lover's Cove?
Let's see, huge revenue from glass bottom boats vs. uh......
Well, I guess not.
Let's see, huge revenue from glass bottom boats vs. uh......
Well, I guess not.
Unbelievable...I was there the day the other morons drove their rent-a-boats into the park. Glad to hear it was light today, my wife and I are coming over tomorrow for a few dives.drbill:
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