The Problem with Science as a Substitute

[Sas]

Sassy please give me a chance to polish up my posts first, sil vous plait?

AXL is trying his best to philosophize on TV stuff, granted. But he did not even try to show how that relates to science, or to the difference between science and philosophy or religion. Its more like throwing a pizza against the wall to see what he can make stick.

There was indeed a former thread that began with the O/P saying how much he loved Jesus, and a bunch of atheists saying how much they loved their science books instead. TV faith healing probably belonged in that thread, sure. AXL has not hinted however at why his brain thinks it belongs in this thread now.

A sign of brain death or not? I think yes.

Well I can only go by what you have posted and you have obviously added to that since. I am not to know you are busily editing away.

No, did you actually read the OP from the other thread? I quoted it here. I could not find him making a reference to Jesus in that at all. Please quote the reference to Jesus here.

Also as to what people include in a thread, well who cares? Now that faith healing has been brought up, there is no reason why it cannot be discussed.

 

[Thalassamania]

AXL brought up faith healing. You said it is TV stuff. Are you suggesting that the contribution of faith to the healing process is just another myth?

Faith healing really did a great job with smallpox didn't it? Many religions prayed for relief, none got any. It took medical science to eradicate it, not prayer or faith. There is evidence that attitude can effect the course of some disease processes, if faith results a "better" attitude, then you can make the jump, but it is not "faith" it is attitude.

Tell me ... as a general thing, would you rather have faith or an antibiotic?

 

[sandmanz32]

Faith healing really did a great job with smallpox didn't it? Many religions prayed fo relief, none got any. It took medical science to eradicate it, not prayer or faith. There is evidence that attitude can effect the course of some disease processes, if faith results a "better" attitude, then you can make the jump, but it is not "faith" it is attitude.

Tell me ... as a general thing, would you rather have faith or an antibiotic?

Even better, lets make it dive related. If you made a dive to 250fsw, had some sort of equipment failure/ooa situation, panicked, and shot to the surface without any deco. would you pray that the dcs went away, or visit a chamber that science created? Id take the antibiotic, BTW.

 

[Epinephelus]

Faith healing really did a great job with smallpox didn't it? Many religions prayed fo relief, none got any. It took medical science to eradicate it, not prayer or faith. There is evidence that attitude can effect the course of some disease processes, if faith results a "better" attitude, then you can make the jump, but it is not "faith" it is attitude.

Tell me ... as a general thing, would you rather have faith or an antibiotic?

Ah... you picked a good one Thass, struck a chord with me... a classic example of Scientific Faith, the "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not" faith of the scientist. Faith in their own "science" held up the smallpox cure in England for three generations unnecessarily - until one of their own (Jenner) could claim credit for the "great scientific discovery." In fact, innoculation against smallpox was well known much earlier in Turkey, and had been reported by the wife of the British ambassador(Mary Wortley Montagu, who had her own children innoculated while in Istanbul) there nearly 80 years earlier!
To quote from just one of her letters (I don't have the exact date, but as she arrived in 1717 and returned in 1718):
"I am patriot enough to take the pains to bring this useful invention into fashion in England, and I should not fail to write to some of our doctors very particularly about it, if I knew any one of them that I thought had virtue enough to destroy such a considerable branch of their revenue, for the good of mankind. But that distemper is too beneficial to them, not to expose to all their resentment, the hardy wight that should undertake to put an end to it. Perhaps if I live to return, I may, however, have courage to war with them." She did return, in 1718, and she did try to break into the medical community with the knowledge of innoculation, but as we know from history it was Jenner who discovered it in 1796!
The altar of science is subject to the same arrogances and the same abuses that we see at the altars of other religions.
Today, in what appears is going to end up the coldest year in recorded history, we're burning food (putting ethanol in gas tanks) on the altar of "manmade global warming."
HA! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
E.

 

[Sas]

Ah... you picked a good one Thass, struck a chord with me... a classic example of Scientific Faith, the "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not" faith of the scientist. Faith in their own "science" held up the smallpox cure in England for three generations unnecessarily - until one of their own (Jenner) could claim credit for the "great scientific discovery." In fact, innoculation against smallpox was well known much earlier in Turkey, and had been reported by the wife of the British ambassador(Mary Wortley Montagu, who had her own children innoculated while in Istanbul) there nearly 80 years earlier!
To quote from just one of her letters (I don't have the exact date, but as she arrived in 1717 and returned in 1718):
"I am patriot enough to take the pains to bring this useful invention into fashion in England, and I should not fail to write to some of our doctors very particularly about it, if I knew any one of them that I thought had virtue enough to destroy such a considerable branch of their revenue, for the good of mankind. But that distemper is too beneficial to them, not to expose to all their resentment, the hardy wight that should undertake to put an end to it. Perhaps if I live to return, I may, however, have courage to war with them." She did return, in 1718, and she did try to break into the medical community with the knowledge of innoculation, but as we know from history it was Jenner who discovered it in 1796!
The altar of science is subject to the same arrogances and the same abuses that we see at the altars of other religions.
Today, in what appears is going to end up the coldest year in recorded history, we're burning food (putting ethanol in gas tanks) on the altar of "manmade global warming."
HA! It would be funny if it weren't so sad.
E.

Did praying to God cure smallpox? It didn't, that was Thal's point and you missed it entirely. It doesn't matter if a scientist or the wife of a British ambassador came up with the innoculation, it was medical science that eradicated smallpox NOT praying to God. He was not being arrogant about science - there have been many mistakes made in science, but that is the great thing about it, people's scientific theories can be proven wrong and then improved upon. Religion does not allow any contradiction or debate as it claims to be the word of an omnipotent, omniscience being and that if you don't agree with it you will suffer everlasting torture... that is the height of arrogance.

 

[Epinephelus]

Did praying to God cure smallpox? It didn't, that was Thal's point and you missed it entirely.

Pas de tout... but my post was about "Faith in Science" failing to save smallpox victims for EIGHTY YEARS!

It doesn't matter if a scientist or the wife of a British ambassador came up with the innoculation, it was medical science that eradicated smallpox NOT praying to God.

EIGHTY YEARS of misery and suffering and death, so it makes a HUGE difference whether it was a scientist (who collectively ignored the evidence - or, perhaps, as Lady Montagu suspected would be the case, coldly calculated the business effect of slaying that particular cash cow) or the wife of a British ambassador!

Religion does not allow any contradiction or debate

Now that's funny!
Google "lambeth robinson"...
E
oh, gotta share this one...
We Episcopalians tend to say "there ain't no hell;" our Baptist friends say "the hell there ain't!"

 

[adurso]

Ah... you picked a good one Thass, struck a chord with me... a classic example of Scientific Faith, the "we-know-better-than-you-because-we're-scientists-and-you're-not" faith of the scientist. Faith in their own "science" held up the smallpox cure in England for three generations unnecessarily - until one of their own (Jenner) could claim credit for the "great scientific discovery." In fact, innoculation against smallpox was well known much earlier in Turkey, and had been reported by the wife of the British ambassador(Mary Wortley Montagu, who had her own children innoculated while in Istanbul) there nearly 80 years earlier!
*snip*.

This was actually an example of the traditional English "we-know-better-than-the-wogs-because-we-are-British" faith of the British.

The Turks used smallpox virus in the vaccination, Jenner used cowpox. Less unwanted effects from the cowpox.

Bottom line is there was an innoculation, not a cure, ignored by the British because it was Eastern: class prejudice, not science.

 

[Epinephelus]

This was actually an example of the traditional English "we-know-better-than-the-wogs-because-we-are-British" faith of the British.

Not to shave a point too thinly, but Lady Montagu and her children were hardly "WOGs."
British faith in their superiority, scientists' faith in their superiority... six of one, half dozen of the other.
E.

 

[Spencermm]

Well, I am one of the few who have posted on these religious/science threads who don't necessarily see the two as being incongruent.
I had a surgery last week. You can bet your sweet a$$ that while I was in pre-op I was praying for all the medical professionals on my case to be completely on top of their games.
I know there are extremist in the Christian faith who won't go to doctors, but rather depend solely on prayer. I'm not one of them. I think that type of thinking is ignorant.(I wonder if those same people refuse to use lawn mowers and instead pray their grass cut.)
God gave us these wonderful brains for a reason.
Spencer

 

[IXΘYΣ]

Well, I am one of the few who have posted on these religious/science threads who don't necessarily see the two as being incongruent.
...
(I wonder if those same people refuse to use lawn mowers and instead pray their grass cut.)
God gave us these wonderful brains for a reason.
Spencer

Love the grass cutting example!
I pray for cooler weather so hubby won't have a heart attack while cutting the grass.