The Philosophy of Diver Training

[TCDiver1]

Why buddy-breathing is taught in addition to sharing air using octopus seconds. I like others have my opinion (and have expressed them), but others seem unable to in favor of name calling.

Not sure what standards are for PADI now but buddy breathing used to be a voluntary skill that could be taught in confined water if desired. I think it's a good skill to learn from a teamwork standpoint but with the octo becoming standard equipment, it has become arguably redundant as an air sharing exercise IMO.

 

[Walter]

As I was trying to point-out each agency has a slightly different training philosophy. From what I can gather, the largest difference is between PADI and the other agencies.

While I agree with your main point, PADI is not alone. Other agencies with similar training requirements include SSI and SDI. SDI does not require tables to be taught, the others do.

Once again you are trying to compare apples and oranges. A recreational standard v an arguably professional one.

So compare PADI's (or SSI's or SDI's) entry level standards to those of SEI (or ACUC or CMAS).

Not sure what standards are for PADI now but buddy breathing used to be a voluntary skill that could be taught in confined water if desired.

There was a time (after octos were common) when PADI required buddy breathing. Later buddy breathing was made optional by many agencies (irrational public fear of AIDs) and now I hear PADI (any other's?) is forbidding it.

 

[DCBC]

If properly applied there's no reason PADI standards can't put out a well rounded "recreational" diver if said diver choses to practice what is learned. ...A recreational standard v an arguably professional one.

There are differences between the standards of the recreational certification agencies. One area is the requirement to complete a rescue of a sub-surface victim prior to certification (or not to). If you believe that a diver can act as a responsible buddy without this skill, it's not an issue. If you feel that a buddy requires this training before s/he's certified, that would be a valid reason to believe that the diver would not be safe to certify.

The standards of any agency are what they are. Each agency may look upon an instructor adding to course content differently. If you're teaching in vacation land a diver requires X, this amount may or may not be sufficient if the instructor is teaching that same diver in the North Atlantic. What is sufficient in one location may be insufficient in another. If the Agency allows content to be added/modified to the the training program, there isn't a problem. If it doesn't, then it's reasonable to assume that the course may be insufficient for local needs.

As Thal has already eluded to, many of us may be guilty of not adequately explaining our position. CMAS and ACUC empower their instructors to add whatever information and skill-sets they deem reasonably required to ensure diver safety. They may modify the training program (upward) and add content. They take on the liability for doing so, under the scope of what is reasonable and are insured to do so.

For example, as local waters here have high current and tidal exchange, I require my students to surpass the minimum swimming requirements that are outlined within my agencies training standards. CMAS and ACUC encourage me to do so. What is the current position of NAUI and PADI on this?

As I understand NAUI swimming requirements, the instructor may increase these requirements at their discretion. Can PADI's in-water requirements be increased by the instructor and the new requirements be required for certification?

I am sincerely asking this question, as I am of the understanding that with PADI, a person who can not swim, could pass the in-water evaluation and may eventually be certified. Is this correct? I would no doubt be held to be negligent in-case of an accident given local conditions, if I allowed a weak swimmer (or non swimmer) in the water here.

 

[DCBC]

While I agree with your main point, PADI is not alone. Other agencies with similar training requirements include SSI and SDI. SDI does not require tables to be taught, the others do.

Thanks Walter. I've tried to explain some of this better in my recent post. I guess what I'm trying to get a handle on is what is allowed, what is required and what is prohibited? Can an instructor modify or add to the standards (as a mandatory requirement) for certification in-light of local conditions? What are the positions of each agency?

 

[Walter]

As I understand NAUI swimming requirements, the instructor may increase these requirements at their discretion.

That is correct.

Can PADI's in-water requirements be increased by the instructor and the new requirements be required for certification?

No. The best they can do is get students to voluntarily go along with his suggestions. On the other hand, the students are unlikely to know the difference.

I am sincerely asking this question, as I am of the understanding that with PADI, a person who can not swim, could pass the in-water evaluation and may eventually be certified. Is this correct?

As long as they can stay aloat for 10 minutes and snorkel 300 yds, they qualify on that portion of the class. Assuming they pass the other requirements, they would be certified without being able to swim.

As a side note, I liked to snorkel before I learned to swim. A 300 yd snorkel was a snap for me. Staying afloat for 10 minutes would have been difficult, but doable.

 

[Walter]

Can an instructor modify or add to the standards (as a mandatory requirement) for certification; in-light of the local conditions in each agency?

I don't know enough about SSI or SDI standards to answer. An instructor teaching a PADI class may not add any requirements. They can, however, add in optional material/skills (as long as it is not specifically prohibited. For example, my class would violate PADI standards because I teach skin diving before introducing SCUBA. On the other hand, a PADI instructor could teach that way if they start with a skin diving class before starting the OW class.

 

[TCDiver1]

There was a time (after octos were common) when PADI required buddy breathing. Later buddy breathing was made optional by many agencies (irrational public fear of AIDs) and now I hear PADI (any other's?) is forbidding it.

It was required when i got my PADI BOW in 1979. All i can tell you is it was optional when i got involved in teaching in the early 90's. Between 79 and then, octos became more prevalent, aids became epidemic and i think PADI and others others reacted logically by not requiring BB. Considering the thinking of the day that is.

I've been out of teaching for a few years so i'm not up on my standards. Forbidding it seems extreme to me if that's what's going on. I always liked the option to teach it if desired.

 

[Kingpatzer]

I'm not sure but it may be that the 300 yard snorkel is at the instructor discretion. The standard says a student must complete one or the other, but there is not a requirement when the skill is tested, and it is not clear that the instructor must offer one or the other, but rather that they must evaluate one of those skills.

I'd have to ask my CD or PADI but it reads as if the instructor must offer one or the other, and may offer both.

 

[DCBC]

As long as they can stay afloat for 10 minutes and snorkel 300 yds, they qualify on that portion of the class. Assuming they pass the other requirements, they would be certified without being able to swim.

As I mentioned, there would be little doubt that I would be held liable if I put such a person in the water here. If I certified a person like this to dive in local conditions, the diver would be unsafe as the training given would be insufficient (regardless of meeting PADI standards).

As I understand from your other answers, if I were a PADI Instructor, I could not modify the swimming standards and be obliged to certify the diver if he met all other conditions. I believe that this is an example of where the PADI standard (along with any other agency who does not allow the instructor to reasonably increase the requirements), would not meet the minimum safety level dictated by local conditions.

Is there any other agency that you are aware of that does not allow an instructor to increase the minimum standards outlined by the certification agency?

As a side note, I liked to snorkel before I learned to swim. A 300 yd snorkel was a snap for me. Staying afloat for 10 minutes would have been difficult, but doable.

I did this as well; from age 6 until I was 8 1/2 when I learned to swim.

 

[TCDiver1]

I am sincerely asking this question, as I am of the understanding that with PADI, a person who can not swim, could pass the in-water evaluation and may eventually be certified. Is this correct? I would no doubt be held to be negligent in-case of an accident given local conditions, if I allowed a weak swimmer (or non swimmer) in the water here.

Again, i'm not 100% up on current PADI standards but not being able to swim was a non-starter for OW certification when i was teaching. If you couldn't swim, you didn't get past the shop cash register let alone CW module one if you lied about it. Watermanship skills were among the first things i evaluated. You didn't have to finish the swims in record time but you had to be relatively comfortable doing it.

If i was in your position related to teaching in heavy tidal areas and still wanted to teach PADI, i would require a separate swimming class to handle that extreme as required. The class could be before OW training if PADI wouldn't allow it. Where there's a will, there's a way.