The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

But in answer to your rebuttle, with the whittled down classes that your agency offers to allow the modular teaching that you seem so fond of.

Which agency is that?

If a student should choose not to follow the modular route and take the training he was given in OW as sufficient for his needs ad finitum I don't care how intelligent or gentle your approach may be they are not prepared to go out and dive independantly but they are not aware of that fact, and that makes them a danger to themselves and whomever they may be diving with.

Which begs the question as to why my students go out and dive independently and have never suffered a serious injury? Did you think that my safety record is merely accidental?

You are quite a drama queen and keep on referring to "eternal classes and macho mentality" The Hellfire and Brimstone is another over reaction.

Overreaction to what? You told me... you TOLD me that I couldn't mention "death" or "bad" in my classes. Obviously, you are operating under a number of misconceptions about "what" and "how" I teach. You have been convinced by the Scuba Luddites that instructional evolution is BBBBAAAAADDDDDD. Macho divers are GGGOOOODDD! Your brainwashing is almost complete! Sorry, I haven't been fitted for the foil beanie yet and I don't buy into their bash every way but my way of teaching mentality.

My direction is provide better training for OW,

As is mine.

don't add watered down courses for the "occasional diver" maintain a high standard and give the students a better start and knowledge, rather than pushing continuing education down their throat train them and give them enough information so they know why they should continue rather than just going after the "patches" and c cards.

You know, I would pit my divers against your divers skill for skill if that were possible. You would probably be surprised at how quickly an excellent diver can be produced if you follow some fun and intuitive techniques. But hey, if you are comfortable with your way: have at it. You won't hear a word from me until you start to bash others for teaching what they are comfortable with.

 

[Guy Alcala]

<snip>
And have you considered that it might be better to get a higher volume of divers at a lower standard out there from a conservation point of view? We need large numbers more than small batches of gurus. We need to bring conservation to the general consciousness and I think I believe that means making access to the oceans more accessible.

J

Now there is the conservationist's dilemma. Is it better to have large numbers of marginally aware people experience an area, even though they cause inordinate amounts of damage in the process through their lack of knowledge/skills and sheer numbers (aka 'loving it to death')? Or would a smaller number of more educated, dedicated, skilled people be more effective in preserving the resource?

I don't know. I've seen both work, or more typically a combination of the two. For instance, in the years of fighting over the direction of development in Yosemite, the 'serious' environmentalists have in general largely decided to abandon Yosemite Valley to the hordes (while fighting fiercely over specific situations there), because they provide the mass voice to pressure politicians about National Parks per se. Meanwhile, the serious types fight tooth and nail to preserve the remote parts of the park in a more natural state, which the majority of car tourists will never see/experience (or damage).

ISTM diving pretty much does the same, although it's skewed more towards the 'car' tourist end.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Now there is the conservationist's dilemma. Is it better to have large numbers of marginally aware people experience an area, even though they cause inordinate amounts of damage in the process through their lack of knowledge/skills and sheer numbers (aka 'loving it to death')? Or would a smaller number of more educated, dedicated, skilled people be more effective in preserving the resource?

I don't know. I've seen both work, or more typically a combination of the two. For instance, in the years of fighting over the direction of development in Yosemite, the 'serious' environmentalists have in general largely decided to abandon Yosemite Valley to the hordes (while fighting fiercely over specific situations there), because they provide the mass voice to pressure politicians about National Parks per se. Meanwhile, the serious types fight tooth and nail to preserve the remote parts of the park in a more natural state, which the majority of car tourists will never see/experience (or damage).

ISTM diving pretty much does the same, although it's skewed more towards the 'car' tourist end.

Not necessarily ... "car" tourists don't generally go to the more challenging, and therefore more pristine, places that more skilled divers are attracted to. Mostly they don't even want to, because the amenities they've come to expect aren't generally available.

So to each their own ... as long as they're appropriately trained for the environment they're diving in ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

I agree with you Bob, I just wish that the training agencies would come clean with their clients about what they can reasonably expect and count on.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Well, I'd like to continue, but I have to go to work, then this evening I am going to be doing a pool session where we hope to create a number of divers who's first OW experience will be death and despair. Then it's time to pack for a trip to Saba with the LDS where, with a little luck, the agency goal of multiple deaths per day. Hopefully we'll kill of the lot of them by the second day.

 

[DCBC]

Actually, you don't know how or what I teach my students.

So what you're saying is that YOU are the only person that knows what others teach and how they teach it!

As an instructor, my focus is on efficient, applicable training which eschews the macho mentality in favor of an intelligent approach to problem solving. Some just don't get it, and their training is demonstrative of that. I am not restrained from saying "bad" or "death" in any of my classes, but I surely don't keep preaching Dying and Brimstone with every other breath! But then, I get the idea that the point of some instructors here is NOT to learn or improve, but to show the rest of us that our students will surely die.

I think that we all wish to learn and improve. Some of us just disagree on what skill-sets our students need to dive safely in local conditions. Florida diving for many of us is vacation diving; some of us have to prepare our students for more stringent conditions.

No one hear is saying that you don't do a good job teaching your students. I can't comment; I don't know you, haven't seen you dive, or teach. But why is it that a warm water Instructor such as yourself is lecturing other instructors as to what is needed to prepare our students for conditions that are completely different than what you are familiar with?

What makes you think that we teach with outdated methods and are not efficient because we may teach a more extensive course? How is it that you can make such assumptions and at the same time belittle others who don't agree with you?

Have you ever even dove in challenging conditions? Perhaps you can come up to Halifax and we can go for a dive in the North Atlantic? Bring a few of your students up and we'll see how well they do. Today the conditions are really nice, the water temperature is up to 33.8 degrees with a wave height of 10.8 feet.

You would at least then understand what some of us are talking about. Who knows, you might even develop an informed opinion before ridiculing others.

 

[DCBC]

Entered in error: double posting

 

[The Chairman]

So what you're saying is that YOU are the only person that knows what others teach and how they teach it!

No. That's YOUR contention, not mine. You claim to possess the only "safe" method of teaching Scuba.

I think that we all wish to learn and improve.

What have you learned here, then? I mostly see you bemoaning the state of training with PADI being your whipping boy.

What makes you think that we teach with outdated methods and are not efficient because we may teach a more extensive course?

I've read your posts. I can read what and how you train your students and how you miss the "macho" in diving.

Have you ever even dove in challenging conditions?

What? I am not macho enough for you?

You would at least then understand what some of us are talking about. Who knows, you might even develop an informed opinion before ridiculing others.

Hello Pot... kettle here. My only real problem with what you present us, is your constant ridiculing of others and PADI in particular. Walter and Thal have learned the difference, and while sometimes they cross the line, they have learned to respect their FELLOW instructors. Maybe you can borrow a clue from them. IJS.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Have you ever even dove in challenging conditions? Perhaps you can come up to Halifax and we can go for a dive in the North Atlantic? Bring a few of your students up and we'll see how well they do. Today the conditions are really nice, the water temperature is up to 33.8 degrees with a wave height of 10.8 feet.

While not directed at me, I have to say that's nothing like Lake Superior, how could we ever compete with the perfect weather, no waves at all, and wonderful warm, clear water!

*sigh* why am I getting sucked in again -- this place is like belonging to the Godfather's family ... I should be packing for Saba, but instead I'm getting sucked back in.

 

[DCBC]

No. That's YOUR contention, not mine. You claim to possess the only "safe" method of teaching Scuba.

No, I have never made such a statement. Again you make accusations and claims without any proof. How do you expect to be taken seriously?

What have you learned here, then?

It's been reinforced that different conditions require different skill-sets. This is something that some certification agencies address and others don't seem to.

I mostly see you bemoaning the state of training with PADI being your whipping boy.

I state my opinion that the state of training is inadequate for some geographic locations. I have stated why I feel this way, you disagree. Differences are something that I can live with, but I don't condone the belittling others by people who should know better than to act in this manner.

I've read your posts. I can read what and how you train your students and how you miss the "macho" in diving.

Looks like the word "macho" has really struck a nerve with you, hasn't it? In that posting I clarified the word "challenge" would have been a better choice of words, but I guess when you get something into your head, you become fixated.

What? I am not macho enough for you?

So does that mean that you are turning down my invitation to dive the North Atlantic?

Hello Pot... kettle here. My only real problem with what you present us, is your constant ridiculing of others and PADI in particular. Walter and Thal have learned the difference, and while sometimes they cross the line, they have learned to respect their FELLOW instructors. Maybe you can borrow a clue from them. IJS.

I was taught to treat people with respect (regardless of whether they are an Instructor or not) right up until the time that they are disrespectful to others. I don't excuse arrogance in any conversation; that's why I have a problem with you.

I have and never will have a problem with an instructor because of their affiliation. What I have a problem with (and it would appear from the comments of others that I'm not alone) is for any instructor to not properly prepare their students to dive safely in local conditions.

I have attempted to get people to outline these requirements by agency so all readers may understand what is really required from the agency perspective. I'm happy to let the cards fall where them may. The truth shall set us free!

Perhaps we can get Walter and Thal's take on what you have been saying and the way you've been saying it. I would be interested in the perspective of others.