The Philosophy of Diver Training

[InTheDrink]

I thought my previous post would be the last, but I feel compelled to post once again here before flying away tomorrow morning. I am talking about (French) CMAS and PADI because I know both intimately, but please don't consider this post as an argument between these two agencies. My point is something else.

1) First issue is training. Full PADI training is OWD-AOWD-RescueDiver-MasterScubaDiver. Full (French) CMAS training is CMAS*-CMAS**-CMAS*** (I exclude the guide rating which is ****). Both full trainings represent quite similar time and number of dives: whatever difference there may be is less than 25%.

2) Second issue is experience: number of dives, and the different places where one has been diving. Swell and currents are as important as depth, coldness, and visibility.

3) Third issue is commitment: one wants to improve oneself, or not ? One learns from one's previous experiences, or not ?

4) In my opinion, provided that the training was up to the standards, and that the students didn't rush from a level to the next, fully-trained (French) CMAS and PADI divers with same commitment and enough experience (say 150+ dives with a good variety of conditions/environments) are both able to dive independently, within the limits of their training and experience.

5) One difference is that (French) CMAS** or *** divers can undertake deco air dives, while PADI is no-deco only.

6) Another difference is that stepping from (French) CMAS* to CMAS** is kind of a shock (but some people like it so) while PADI training is smoother all along (but some people like it so).

7) If it was as big as PADI, probably CMAS would have the same issues (or maybe more) with consistency/quality of its training all around the world; economics and QA concerns being what they are. For me this is the main problem (and not the training standards) but I already addressed economics and QA a lot in this thread, enough about it. Suffice to say than bashing PADI does not provide any solution.

8) Time matters. It still takes 10 minutes to boil an egg (as it has already been said about some decompression models ).

Frogman, you consistently avoid dogmatic stances and talk common sense - nice one mate.

J

 

[Thalassamania]

"Well done FULL (rec) TRAINING leads to quite similar results, whatever the agency"

While this maybe true for some agencies, it simply is not the case for others, e.g., PADI SSI, and NAUI at the Advanced or Master Diver level.

 

[DCBC]

There are diving certification agencies like LA County, SEI and CMAS that have more inclusive training philosophies. Although they don't turn large numbers, they remain "in business." They seek to maintain a higher level of training/exposure time than is otherwise commonplace. They have been operating successfully for many years.

...The course I'm currently training is 50 hours and costs around $200 inclusive, which is about twice as long and half the price of the program offered by the local dive shop.

Playing the poor me I only have $100 card doesn't cut it. If you can't afford it, take-up bird watching instead of scuba. If you decide to take it up, get trained properly. Too many good people have been killed by trying to save those that shouldn't have been certified in the first place!

 

[Guy Alcala]

No, you don't want people d(r)iving if they can't perform like a paramedic. Let's get them a bit of experience behind the wheel of a car BEFORE you put them behind the wheel of an ambulance.

The real difference in philosophy is this: Those who want to make Scuba fun, easy and quick as opposed to those who want to make it arduous, hard and long. There is no way to make someone competent to rescue another diver CONSISTENTLY after only a dozen dives. However, people are able to dive SAFELY and INDEPENDENTLY after only a handful of dives. Can recovery of an unconscious diver be taught at this point? Sure. Will they have the experience to be able to do it under duress? Probably not. Should they forgo gaining more time with an instructor with AOW and then really learning rescue? Of course not. All of the agencies ENCOURAGE divers to go from OW, through AOW and Rescue and all the way to Dive Master. Why cut corners? So you can say that your course is the baddest one around?

Modular training is great. Learn what you want to learn AS YOU NEED IT. Not interested in becoming a "DCBC Macho Diver"? Then go take the FUN course. That's the joy of America: we get to choose how we want to be trained. The fun course WAS fun, but now you want more? Here ya go!

I suppose that's the primary disagreement, that training should be or needs to be 'fun'; if it is, great, but to me training for a potentially dangerous recreational sport is about gaining the skills needed to do what I want to do in a reasonably safe manner, so that I can then go out and have fun doing it. If the training process happens to be 'fun' that's a bonus, but not primary, and I'll happily trade fun for thoroughness and increased competence. To me, the notion that training is supposed to be fun is likely to lead to a lack of seriousness regarding its importance on the part of the trainees. If you combine that with an instructor who wants to do the bare minimum, you've got a recipe for turning out shoddy divers. As we can all attest from observing such, that recipe is used all too frequently.

I once had a conversation at an LDS with the instructor about a particular class I was considering. I told him what I was hoping to learn and do in the class, to which he replied "what fun would that be?" That told me everything I needed to know, and I went elsewhere (actually, I wound up learning by reading and doing). If I'm interested in the subject I'll enjoy the learning regardless, but I regard learning anything to do with my own safety as serious business. I want to be given as much info and training as I'm able to assimilate, plus more that I can assimilate later with experience. In any case, I want enough so that I feel comfortable that I can do the activity in a competent, safe manner entirely on my own, and that I won't be a safety burden for anyone I'm doing it with. This includes training to deal with reasonably likely accidents and incidents, as Mr. Murphy and I are old acquaintances.

Guy (who read the NOAA diving manual for info, after my OW manual and class left me unsatisfied)

 

[Thalassamania]

No, you don't want people d(r)iving if they can't perform like a paramedic. Let's get them a bit of experience behind the wheel of a car BEFORE you put them behind the wheel of an ambulance.

The simile does not hold water.

The real difference in philosophy is this: Those who want to make Scuba fun, easy and quick as opposed to those who want to make it arduous, hard and long.

You're making an assumption that is not correct, there are training programs that are complete, intense, and fun, something that those who want to make scuba cursory and incomplete simply are unfamiliar with.

There is no way to make someone competent to rescue another diver CONSISTENTLY after only a dozen dives.

Actually that's complete and utter crap, based on no data what-so-ever. I have witnessed any number of rescues (especially at Monastery) that were conducted by STUDENTS who were on the scene.

However, people are able to dive SAFELY and INDEPENDENTLY after only a handful of dives.

SAFELY - no, especially in areas where the water conditions are somewhat more challenging than South Florida.

Can recovery of an unconscious diver be taught at this point? Sure. Will they have the experience to be able to do it under duress? Probably not.

Yes, they can.

Should they forgo gaining more time with an instructor with AOW and then really learning rescue? Of course not. All of the agencies ENCOURAGE divers to go from OW, through AOW and Rescue and all the way to Dive Master. Why cut corners? So you can say that your course is the baddest one around?

Moving what you consider essential information into the position that you feel it belongs is "cutting corners?" What kind of bizarre NEWSPEAK is that? Or it that designed to pair with the use of inappropriate, inapplicable or irrelevant adjectives in the " do you still beat your wife?" construct that you are so fond of?

Modular training is great. Learn what you want to learn AS YOU NEED IT.

Often you do not know that you need it until you need it, and then it's too late to learn it.

Not interested in becoming a "DCBC Macho Diver"? Then go take the FUN course. That's the joy of America: we get to choose how we want to be trained. The fun course WAS fun, but now you want more? Here ya go!

I would suspect that the folks who take DCBS's course have fun doing so, and have fun diving after they take the course, I know that my students do. Somehow I doubt that the students who take the FUN course that you advocate could have any FUN what-so-ever if they attempted to dive in the North Atlantic, the North Pacific, the California Coast, or the even the moderate surf areas of Hawaii ... we want our people to have FUN is all the conditions that the would reasonably encounter.

 

[InTheDrink]

Too many good people have been killed by trying to save those that shouldn't have been certified in the first place!

Have they really?

I don't know, that's for sure. But scuba seems to defy logic - plenty of people that look like they should die just don't. Do a lot of people die trying to save people that shouldn't have been certified? Any more than other 'adventure' sports?

And have you considered that it might be better to get a higher volume of divers at a lower standard out there from a conservation point of view? We need large numbers more than small batches of gurus. We need to bring conservation to the general consciousness and I think I believe that means making access to the oceans more accessible.

J

 

[ReefHugger]

To hg frogman:

Thanks for taking the time. Your last post however, has inadvertantly glossed over 2 important (imo) points.

1. The CMAS* is a 'supervised dives only' certification. PADI OW is allowed to dive independently (huge bone of contention). Btw, BSAC's first level (I think Ocean Diver) is only allowed to buddy an Advanced Diver (a further 2 levels up) - in effect supervised.

2. The statement that divers fully trained in either system are almost equally competent (25% diff?), although probably correct, distracts from the larger reality that there is a 70% drop out rate - never to continue beyond OW.

Seems to me that the sum of the above is a reservoir of problems.

In recognition of the 70% above, the longer more comprehensive course must surely be the more socially responsible approach. In addition, I am also in the camp that better training will reduce the 70%.

 

[Thalassamania]

To hg frogman:

Thanks for taking the time. Your last post however, has inadvertantly glossed over 2 important (imo) points.

1. The CMAS* is a 'supervised dives only' certification. PADI OW is allowed to dive independently (huge bone of contention). Btw, BSAC's first level (I think Ocean Diver) is only allowed to buddy an Advanced Diver (a further 2 levels up) - in effect supervised.

I don't think his point had anything to do with what each agency thinks graduates of it's first level program are (or are not) qualified to do.

2. The statement that divers fully trained in either system are almost equally competent (25% diff?), although probably correct, distracts from the larger reality that there is a 70% drop out rate - never to continue beyond OW.

I think it's a fair bit higher than 70%.

Seems to me that the sum of the above is a reservoir of problems.

In recognition of the 70% above, the longer more comprehensive course must surely be the more socially responsible approach. In addition, I am also in the camp that better training will reduce the 70%.

I agree. While I grant there are other things at play, if a 5 year retention is the target, we had virtually 100% retention in the activity after a Scripps model course.

 

[The Chairman]

I have witnessed any number of rescues (especially at Monastery) that were conducted by STUDENTS who were on the scene.

Wow... why did so many of your righteously trained students need rescuing in the first place?

DCBS's

Now THAT's a funny Freudian slip!!!

 

[Thalassamania]

Just what the hell are you blithering about?