The Philosophy of Diver Training

[The Chairman]

To take the first case, since a lie is a deliberate mis-statement or falsehood intended to deceive,

Dictionary.com has an optional definition for "lie" and consequently I have already laid this myopic argument to rest here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5096219-post585.html

Sorry, but I am not going to waste more of my time re-couching this fun etymological discourse for you.

 

[Diver0001]

That's a matter of opinion. If the student has met all PADI requirements, as evaluated by the instructor according to PADI's definitions, the instructor is required to certify the student. Is the diver adequately trained? That's a matter of opinion.

Indeed. That's probably the biggest dead-horse issue on the forums... LOL

I believe you are mistaken here. I've seen Wayne state many times, in this thread and before this thread started that he is a former PADI instructor. I have never seen him claim to be a current PADI instructor.

He did earlier on this thread. I corrected him.

At least two agencies disagree.

Yeah. Well it would be an interesting topic for another thread to ask which rescue skills people felt should be taught at the OW level. One of the great ironies here is that one could certainly argue that newbie divers have a *greater* need to know how to execute a CBL than more experienced divers... LOL

R..

 

[Diver0001]

So PADI insurance would not cover you to teach basic rescue skills as part of an O/W course, even if you did not test those skills and even if you felt those skills were essential to safe diving in the environment you were teaching in?

I've finally caught up to the end of this thread <wipes forehead>

The answer to this question will depend on what you mean by "basic rescue skills".

If you mean the "breathe and peel" or dealing with a diver in panic under water, then I wouldn't think so. Showing them a CBL might fall in a grey area but I would suspect PADI would want you to delay that too for the reasons I mentioned above (they first need to get enough experience dealing with their *own* ascent).

I think PADI would ultimately say about rescue skills that students should be taught in (and dive in for a while until they get some experience) in OW conditions that are not so challenging.

I think (although I'm really just making educated guesses at this point) that they would say that if there are literally no "easy" dive spots for new divers and your local conditions are SO challenging that you really *need* those rescue skills to be safe as a newly certified diver that you should teach them OW, AOW and RESCUE coming out of the gate.

Similarly, PADI insurance would not cover you to teach altitude diving skills, even if the course you were teaching was at lake Tahoe, or Denver or even at my home (3,000 ft.), even if you did not test that knowledge and even if you felt that knowledge was essential to safe diving in the environment you were teaching in?

I would certainly take learning in lake Tahoe as local conditions that required a handling of altitude issues. Ultimately they have to know how to plan a dive for their local conditions. Since the specialty materials are available why wouldn't you use them?

R..

 

[Thalassamania]

So, are you saying that every PADI O/W course that is taught in Tahoe should incorporate the Altitude Specialty Course at additional cost?

 

[The Chairman]

So, are you saying that every PADI O/W course that is taught in Tahoe should incorporate the Altitude Diving Skills. [-]Specialty Course at additional cost?[/-]

There! I fixed it for you!

 

[Diver0001]

Hm ... interesting perspective. Perhaps that's one of the reasons that I'm more comfortable in the Scientific Diving Community. No one gives a rat's ass about, "delivery process," all that anyone cares about is, "product quality." There is an assumption that high quality "product quality" is a good (if indirect) measure of the quality of the "delivery process."

That's an incorrect assumption.

I have a background in Project Management and I'll spare you the seminar but point out in an example why this isn't the case.

A customer comes to you and says "I need some way to get to Paris".

Two project managers start right away with "delivering" what this person asked for.

One of them doesn't give a "rat's ass" about the delivery process and just starts building the product. He builds and builds and builds and 8 months later he delivers the customer this:

along with a bill for $600,000

The other project manager does give a "rat's ass" about delivery process and starts building a business case, an initial project plan, a quality plan (which can be compared in some ways to standards) and so forth. In the "process" of doing this, the customer quality expectations are put on the table, the timelines are determined, the budget is determined and a cost benefit analysis is done. Then the build starts. 1 month later project manager #2 delivers the customer this:

For $3300 and sends the customer away happy.

You're smart so I don't even need to finish this post for you to see where I'm going with this....

R..

 

[Diver0001]

So, are you saying that every PADI O/W course that is taught in Tahoe should incorporate the Altitude Specialty Course at additional cost?

PADI doesn't decide how much courses cost.

When I teach OW students in drysuits they have to pay $50 more. It's logical. There's extra theory and extra time in the pool needed.

But if the instructor in Tahoe wanted to give it away for free PADI wouldn't care.

R..

 

[Thalassamania]

That's a delightful, but dreadfully stupid example that bears only superficial similarities to what was being discussed. To point out the inherent foolishness of the simile, as I pointed out, initially, they are not independent but, "There is an assumption that high quality "product quality" is a good (if indirect) measure of the quality of the "delivery process." In the case of diving instruction I think it far more important that a candidate be able to pass a comprehensive written exam and a diving checkout than it is to be able to display all the chapter quizzes and such.

Pete, you're missing the point ... the question is, will PADI Insurance cover an instructor when he or she teaches altitude diving procedures to an O/W course in Tahoe if the students are not enrolled, simultaneously, in an Altitude Specialty Course (which would never be free, there's the cost of the Cert and the materials if nothing else)?

 

[Guy Alcala]

Dictionary.com has an optional definition for "lie" and consequently I have already laid this myopic argument to rest here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/5096219-post585.html

Sorry, but I am not going to waste more of my time re-couching this fun etymological discourse for you.

Yes, I saw that definition. I also noted it was the third definition, with the first being the one I was using (or a version thereof). And if you were to search all the various internet English dictionaries as well as printed ones, I imagine you'd find that the primary definition of lie is a deliberate statement intended to deceive, or words to that effect. But that's by the by, we could just ask people what they thought Diver0001 meant when he stated that Wayne's claims were lies - your definition or mine. If the primary purpose of language is to accurately communicate one's views, then what your audience thinks you mean is surely relevant.

Guy

 

[The Chairman]

That's a delightful, but dreadfully stupid example that bears only superficial similarities to what was being discussed. To point out the inherent foolishness of the simile, as I pointed out, initially, they are not independent but, "There is an assumption that high quality "product quality" is a good (if indirect) measure of the quality of the "delivery process." In the case of diving instruction I think it far more important that a candidate be able to pass a comprehensive written exam and a diving checkout than it is to be able to display all the chapter quizzes and such.

OK... we feel the same, except for the written exam. That's just old timey!

Pete, you're missing the point ... the question is, will PADI Insurance cover an instructor when he or she teaches altitude diving procedures to an O/W course in Tahoe if the students are not enrolled, simultaneously, in an Altitude Specialty Course (which would never be free, there's the cost of the Cert and the materials if nothing else)?

Why would they HAVE to do an altitude specialty course? If their instruction is table based, then yes they would have to buy the tables. Does an instructor have to teach the Boat Diving Specialty Course if the check outs are on a boat? Actually, PADI would have a problem with a course being taught at altitude that DID NOT contain information about how to execute a safe dive at altitude.