The "other" end of the DIR question

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3dent:
It seems to me that with the amount of anti-DIR rhetoric on these threads, that DIR folks should at least look at how they are presenting themselves. After all, if the system is all it’s claimed to be, it should sell itself.


Excellent point 3dent. I agree.

I don't have a problem with the concepts, thoughts and ideas of DIR. I only have a problem with those from the DIR pool of followers that feel the need to force their opinions and interpretations of DIR onto me.

Matthew J D'Avella
 
LioKai:
Excellent point 3dent. I agree.

I don't have a problem with the concepts, thoughts and ideas of DIR. I only have a problem with those from the DIR pool of followers that feel the need to force their opinions and interpretations of DIR onto me.

Matthew J D'Avella

Force their interpretations of DIR on to you? Are you saying that those of us that have gone thru the process and have been taught DIR are somehow less informed about it than you are? Remember, when you decide to dive DIR, you need to drink the Kool-Aid. There is no room for personal preference or "interpretation". That really bothers some people, and that's okay. We're really not trying to convert anyone. Really. You don't want to go DIR? Fine, the DIR police wil not come to your house and take you away. But until you can show us a better way to dive, we will still defend our position.
 
I'm new here, and this thread fascinated me, so much so that I have to put in my .02.

I'm a Northeast wreck diver, and have been doing what we all now know as technical diving for the last 19 years, since well before it had a name. I dove the Doria on air before trimix was ever available, mixed my first trimix from welding supply helium bottles, dove experimental trimix tables that had been cut for us by hand, and did the U-869 before it was identified. I may not have been the foremost pioneer nor the most well known, but I dove with many who now are, and even helped train some of them. I have been a crew member on a local dive boat for most of that time, and continue to crew and do technical dives every week. I dove the U-869 just 3 weeks ago. I am a PADI MSDT and TDI Technical Instructor, and am Full Cave Certified through NSS-CDS, NACD, and IANTD Technical Cave Diver. I have done over 2000 technical dives on Northeast wrecks and Florida and Mexico Caves. Other than my cave dives, almost all of my diving has been done solo. Suffice it to say, I have been around this stuff since it's infancy.

When I started doing technical dives, there was little in the way of instruction or equipment suitable for our needs. Learning meant finding someone to take you under their wing. It meant asking questions, trying various different things, making your own equipment when nothing commercially available would work, and in general, experimenting with what worked best. It most of all meant that you had to have an open mind. There was no standardization, and every diver did what worked for them the best. Over the years, as technical equipment and training have become available, I have participated, and taken from it what worked for me the best and integrated it into my diving methodology and equipment configuration. I continue to train technical divers using a wide scope of information, and presenting them with many ideas and options on how to accomplish their goals the best. To me, the idea that any one way of doing something will work for everyone in every situation, is just so totally contradictory to everything I stand for and believe in, that accepting DIR as a whole is just something I cannot do.

I have a lot of respect for George Irvine and Jarrod Jablonski in terms of what they have accomplished, and I applaud their efforts to provide comprehensive technical diving education. Their system obviously is invaluable in a team technical diving effort, in the context where it evolved. No question. it works for many people. I disagree with the rigidity of their concept, because of how I dive and how I learned. I study their materials and have even adopted some of their ideas, but I reject others because they do not work as well for me.

For many years, when technical diving exploded into the marketplace, the education that existed was too financially driven, and too easy to obtain. Too many have died on technical dives, in my opinion, because of lack of experience. Training is simply not enough without a solid platform of experience to back it up. Too many technical divers were too gear loaded and task loaded, with only training dives as experience, that when faced with even minor crisis, they were unable to perform. DIR in many ways addresses that issue and turns out competent, experienced technical divers. In my opinion, however, the rigidity of the system takes away some of the experimentation with alternative configurations and equipment that may work better for some people, because they are trained to do it only the DIR way. It would be insulting and innacurate to call these people brainwashed, but the fundamentals of their training preclude their consideration of outside ideas and concepts, on the premise that those who are "better" or "smarter" then them have tried it, and decided it was wrong. This is surely a gross generalization that does not apply to every DIR diver, but should be taken as a comment on the methodology under which they are trained. The term DIR itself implies that if you are not "Doing it Right", you are doing it wrong.

I see dozens of technical divers every month, some DIR, some not. Some are quite skilled, some are accidents waiting to happen. Some are nice people, some are jerks. Some DIR divers are rigid advocates of the DIR system who look down their noses at everyone else, others are great guys who enjoy sharing their knowledge and experience, and genuinely consider the opinions and experiences of others. I took formal Trimix training not too long ago from a DIR advocate and GUE member. He presented many DIR concepts, and gave me the option to implement them or not as I chose, and I respected him for that. Had he told me my way was wrong, I would have found another instructor. As such, because he was open minded and respectful of my ideas, I learned some new things from his configuration methodology, and he learned some from mine. We shared our experiences, found our common ground, and debated the points of contention. That is the nature of evolution. That is how better ideas come into existence. That is how technical diving was born, and continues to grow.

Because most of my diving is done solo, how I configure my gear affects no one but me. I rarely do technical dives with a buddy. When I do, it is someone who I know very well, and who knows me. We are intimately aware of how each other's gear is configured, and we plan out the dives together using a well tested routine. Most importantly, although we are diving together, we plan, configure, and prepare for the dive as if we were each solo.

Ultimately, the likelihood I will give up everything I have learned over the last two decades and reconfigure my gear and my dive methodology to follow what someone else says is the "ONLY" way to "Do it Right", is slim to nill. I try to remain open to the ideas and concepts that come from it, and integrate those that work for me and fit with my diving methodolgy. The rest I will reject for myself. I leave it to others to make their own evaluations and decide for themselves. I am only dissapointed that the DIR system doesn't encourage the same.

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for this, but what the heck? Maybee I'll learn something new?

Adam
 
AADiveRex:
...I study their materials and have even adopted some of their ideas, but I reject others because they do not work as well for me....

I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for this, but what the heck? Maybee I'll learn something new?
No blasting from me ;)
I am, however, genuinely interested in which DIR ideas you have adopted and which you have rejected. What did you find that did and did not work for you and why? I encourage you to post it openly, but if you'd rather not, PM is fine.
 
AAdiveRex,
your post should end this thread. For that matter, your post should end all confrontations between the DIR and the non-DIR completely. That was awesome. Thank you.

Matthew J D'Avella
 
Adam,

Welcome to the board. I am with ya bud (albeit more in spirt and philosophy than experience!)...

With the length of time and specific sites you've dove, I am just curious if you knew the Rouse's?
 
what LioKai said... AADiveRex's post was an excellent, well-thought out post, based on considerable experience
on the subject

and i agree. i LEARNED of a lot of these concepts from DIR, so in that respect,
i am grateful to DIR; however, that doesn't mean that DIR invented these concepts
or has a patent on them. you can do it right without being DIR.

that said, DIR is a great system, and it produces awesome divers.
 
AADiveRex:
I'm new here, and this thread fascinated me, so much so that I have to put in my .02.


I took formal Trimix training not too long ago from a DIR advocate and GUE member. He presented many DIR concepts, and gave me the option to implement them or not as I chose, and I respected him for that. Had he told me my way was wrong, I would have found another instructor. As such, because he was open minded and respectful of my ideas, I learned some new things from his configuration methodology, and he learned some from mine. We shared our experiences, found our common ground, and debated the points of contention. That is the nature of evolution. That is how better ideas come into existence. That is how technical diving was born, and continues to grow.



I'm sure I'm going to get blasted for this, but what the heck? Maybee I'll learn something new?

Adam


This is the thing that scares the hell out if me, change, hopefully for the better, has driven both tech and rec diving for years now, DIR seems, please note SEEMS to preclude this.........

Welcome to the Board ;)
 
Excellent post AADiveRex. The weight of your claimed experience will hopefully have significance for some.

On another note, DIR proponents sometimes tend to oversimplify matters presenting a limited biased view which leads, in actually misleads, some into reaching and perpetuating a flawed conclusion.

Case in point: Uniformity in gear configuration and training are critical considerations in team optimization. However, different teams presented with the same objective will choose various different components and practices. Some, is in part due to the necessity to consider the qualities and characteristics presented by the specific team members.
Other variances will result due to a difference of opinion over prioritization due to the inherent degree of uncertainty present when calculating complex estimates.The best approach is not always black and white, but a matter of estimating probabilities often difficult or impossible to accurate calculate. Note how various elite teams, such as SWAT and Special Forces, adopt differing gear and practices even when given the same objective. It is not always due to limiting factors such as cost, time, etc. Of course they will share some specifics. Which one is better? Mine, they will answer in unison. Barring definite proof, I guess we just have to take their word for it. Yet, barring any obvious errors in judgement, they all probably have a similiar chance at successfully completing the objective.

A problem I see with DIR, is that when faced with a difference of opinion or questions challenging their conclusions, they immediately respond with an us against them, circle the wagons, mentality. Adopting the current politically correct notion of admitting no flaws, instead blaming others. And unfortunately, those able to accept and correct misconceptions such as the example above, are not only usually absent from the discussion but adopt the same mentality mentioned above, reinforcing and encouraging the propagation of a flawed conclusion derived from a limited and biased presentation of all readily available facts. The result is a credibility issue as perceived by many. Presenting all readily available facts, positive and negative, would result in a different - more factual conclusion, eliminating a lot of the unending pointless arguments.

My system is best for me due to .......................
Leaves enough room to recognize - that your system may be best for you due to ..........

Of course this flies in the face of the DIR dogma encountered on internet forums.
 
Scuba:
A problem I see with DIR, is that when faced with a difference of opinion or questions challenging their conclusions, they immediately respond with an us against them, circle the wagons, mentality.

You're missing the point. Any DIR diver will gladly engage you in a discussion over a "difference of opinion."

The fact is that most of the time when a non-DIR diver has a "difference of opinion" with a DIR diver, or even simply someone who understands DIR well, the DIR diver offers a clear, rational, concise set of reasons for his particular decision. The other DIR divers back him or her up in this decision making process because it's logical and, really, correct.

The only reason the non-DIR divers feel "circled" and attacked is because there are so many people who have thought the system out so well and they are in complete consensus.. versus the one individual who Does It His Way and simply hasn't given his diving such an incredibly thorough examination.

There's no "us vs them" mentality or consensus in the DIR community.. there's simply the confidence that comes along with knowing you have done such a rigorous examination of your own diving and corrected as many problems as possible.

There's no "dogma." DIR is a set of conclusions to the problems introduced by SCUBA. I challenge you to give us a detailed analysis of your gear, methods, and techniques for critique by ScubaBoard. Do you think that your way will stand up to intense scrutiny? Do you think there is any possible way to improve your diving safety and enjoyment? If so, why haven't you made that change? Do you think that any of the experienced divers here will be able to find a potentially dangerous flaw in your system? No one can find such a flaw in DIR, so the only way to attack it is to attack is rigidity.. but this rigidity is what makes it so perfect.

If you don't like it, don't dive it. But do you really think "your way" can stand up to this type of examination? DIR can, and has for years. Do you really think your way is safer or more comprehensive?
 

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