The "other" end of the DIR question

[WJL]

... Just because a gadget doesn't make you a better diver doesn't mean that it is wrong. How do you know it won't benefit you if you don't try it. If someone wants to try something out, I don't see the problem. If it doesn't add the expected benefit they will quit using it. OTOH they might find it helpful and continue to use it. Either way, if they want to spend their money on it then what's the problem. If trying a few gadgets out helps them learn, then all the better.

Mark, as far as any DIR diver is concerned, you can try out all the gadgets you want. But if somebody asks whether some gadget is a good thing or a bad thing, the DIR people (if any respond) are going to try to explain the DIR thinking on the issue. Accept it or don't. Do what you want.

DIR divers believe that standardizing equipment and frequent practicing of handling simulated emergencies using the standard equipment increases the likelihood that a diver can handle a real emergency. Most organizations that have to deal with emergencies and high stress scenarios, like police, fire fighters, military, commercial airline pilots, to name but a few, emphasize the same things for dealing with emergencies: standard protocols, standard equipment, frequent practice in simulated emergencies. Can this be just a coincidence? I don't think so.

I feel more comfortable and confident when diving knowing that my buddies and I have regularly practiced dealing with emergencies under water. A good part of that comes from being intimately familiar with my own equipment, and that of every other team member. Because the equipment configuration is basically the same for every dive and every diver, there is that much less to deal with when the adrenaline starts to pump and it gets harder to think clearly.

That's my take on the DIR philosophy regarding equipment. You don't have to agree with it. Many excellent divers, with far more experience and skill than I have, think DIR is a bunch of baloney. So do whatever makes you happiest.

I think the DIR trainig would probably produce better divers overall. I can't fault them for their improved skills and in most cases they are probably safer divers. I just think they shouldn't look down their noses at those who are less experienced and want to try some other options. It's the "you're all going to kill yourself because your not DIR attitude" that some DIR trained divers exhibit that I don't appreciate. ...

The standard attitude with all the DIR divers I know is that they want to have fun diving. They enjoy being good divers, or at least practicing and trying to be good divers. It's just more fun to be competent than incompetent. Diving is easier if you feel comfortable. It's relaxing to be confident you can deal with things, instead of just hoping nothing goes wrong.

Some people seem to believe that there is no appreciable risk associated with scuba diving. I believe that there is a certain increased level of risk in entering an environment where you have to bring along a finite supply of breathing gas just to stay alive. It's obvious that thousands of people with minimal training come back alive from their dives, and that the overwhelming majority of dives are concluded without serious injuries. But people do die while diving. And no matter how many times I hear that diving is less dangerous than bowling, I am not going to believe it. A bad mistake in bowling is a gutter ball. A bad mistake in diving could cost your life, because nobody can breathe water. So why not try to minimize the risk in diving? That's the basic impetus for the DIR philosophy.

Perhaps talking about DIR as a way to improve safety comes across as "looking down my nose." It's not intended that way. GUE as a DIR training agency has a different emphasis on safety than many other agencies that I believe makes a lot of sense, but that doesn't mean that other agencies are unsafe. DIR is just one way of trying to make safer, comfortable, confident and competent divers, albeit the one I ascribe to. Plenty of non-DIR divers are safe, comfortable, confident and competent. So Mark, dive however you want.

 

[jonnythan]

"However, the GUE curriculum is structured with the assumption that participants are not threatened by a conviction that one style may be more effective than another."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't GUE "threated by a conviction" that all ways of diving besides theirs is not "effective"?

Uh, no, it's the first way. You have to take a step back and evaluate every situation you can get into while diving and systematically eliminate the problems. You have not done this. The creators of DIR have, and continue to do so to this day. The result of that analysis is DIR. To reach this conclusion you HAVE to be open to the suggestion that one method to do something specific is superior to another method.

It's not about saying "your way is wrong," it's about "well, what about this? This is why this way is better."

"GUE representatives are not attempting to label other techniques ineffective or dangerous, but they would be irresponsible not to feature the highly effective and popular style used by all of our members."

OK, so meathods other than DIR aren't ineffective/dangerous but it is irresponsible to use these other techniques?

It's irresponsible to use those techniques in a high risk environment when you're aware that there's a safer, superior, more comprehensively sensible way to do it. Trust me, it's really not about "your way is wrong" or "you're a stroke" or anything like that. True DIR is about "after extremely careful consideration, critical analysis, and lots of diving and thinking, this way to do x is the superior way, and if you're willing to listen I'm willing to explain to you why." If you add up all of those superior methodologies, you get DIR as we know it today.

 

[Robert Phillips]

I just think they shouldn't look down their noses at those who are less experienced and want to try some other options. It's the "you're all going to kill yourself because your not DIR attitude" that some DIR trained divers exhibit that I don't appreciate. Yes, there are a number of gadgets that if you think about it long enough you can figure out that it won't be that useful. But it doesn't mean it was wrong for someone to try it.

The only time I have heard the "You're all going to kill yourself because you're not DIR" was from some anti-DIR zealot telling the world how some "DIR" diver insulted them. The whole time I have been a member of this board, I have heard this spouted, but I have NEVER seen it any other way. Always some one reporting how "DIR divers tell everyone they are going to die if they don't 'do it right'," or "Your telling me I'm doing it wrong and I'm going to die."
Most people have an opinion on gear configurations before they take a GUE class, or if they never take one. If I see some one who is a complete cluster in the water, I avoid them and hope that they don't kill themselves. It does not matter who I was trained by, but I would accept it as normal if I had not learned that better training is out there. Limited training yeilds limited knowledge, but if that is all you know, you think you know it all.

But DIR is not just about gear... You've all heard it before, but did you listen, or did you write it off because you heard some one say that they once heard that some one told a friend of theirs that a 'direr' told them they were going to die because they wore split fins and a Dacor Rig? If all you can complain about is perceived 'attitudes', then you are selling DIR and GUE short.
Dive safe, dive often.
Robert

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

Perhaps talking about DIR as a way to improve safety comes across as "looking down my nose." It's not intended that way. GUE as a DIR training agency has a different emphasis on safety than many other agencies that I believe makes a lot of sense, but that doesn't mean that other agencies are unsafe. DIR is just one way of trying to make safer, comfortable, confident and competent divers, albeit the one I ascribe to. Plenty of non-DIR divers are safe, comfortable, confident and competent. So Mark, dive however you want.

This is the kind of post that gives DIR a good name. I also felt Detroit Diver's response was appropriate. I have no doubt that DIR divers will be safer divers. The other divers you described are on the other end of the scale and some of them are dangerous. After 30 years of diving I feel I am a safe diver without a need for further training. I purchased the DIR-F book a few monthes ago and studied it. If a DIR class was available where I live I would probably take it just for the personal growth. My complaint is about those that see themselves as superior just because the "do it right." I agree that most of the gadgets are useless and a waste of money. I don't get the "look down the nose" feeling from your post. If all DIR divers would be a bit more diplomatic as you have been would help the public opinion of DIR.

 

[Bubble Blower 479]

The only time I have heard the "You're all going to kill yourself because you're not DIR" was from some anti-DIR zealot telling the world how some "DIR" diver insulted them. The whole time I have been a member of this board, I have heard this spouted, but I have NEVER seen it any other way. Always some one reporting how "DIR divers tell everyone they are going to die if they don't 'do it right'," or "Your telling me I'm doing it wrong and I'm going to die."

I agree, the Anti-DIR group can be overly negative. I see myself in the middle. I am always looking for improvements while making changes only when I feel the benefit is worth the cost in money and time.

 

[detroit diver]

Okay, let's start from the beginning. DIR is NOT solely for tech diving. I use it all the time for recreational diving.

No one is insinuating that you're doing it wrong. Get over the slogan and look at the program. Do you have the same feelings for Dive-Rite equipment???

Now, for your questions:
"However, the GUE curriculum is structured with the assumption that participants are not threatened by a conviction that one style may be more effective than another."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't GUE "threated by a conviction" that all ways of diving besides theirs is not "effective"?

I don't believe GUE is threatened by any other way of diving. Every single aspect of the DIR system has been thoroughly examined for it's relevance, and it's safety. I honestly believe that you wouldn't find a piece of equipment or technique that would not stand up to a microscopic examination.

"GUE representatives are not attempting to label other techniques ineffective or dangerous, but they would be irresponsible not to feature the highly effective and popular style used by all of our members."

OK, so meathods other than DIR aren't ineffective/dangerous but it is irresponsible to use these other techniques?

If you have a better technique, then it just follows that you would teach that technique as opposed to something that you believe is inferior. You don't have to label others as dangerous to teach something that you believe in as being a better method.

Dive safe.

I don't know alot about DIR/GUE. I've heard good and bad. I like some of their ideas, others i can't use. All i do is recreational diving. I have no use for tec diving right now. That said, heres my $.02:
DIR is great for people who like it, but i don't like the insinuation that my way of diving is wrong just because it is not the same as theirs. I believe each style of diving has it's own meathods and lifestyle. DIR isn't mine, although it makes me think hard about a lot of things and through that probably improves my diving whether i go the DIR way or not.


Also when i was checking out the GUE website i found some intersting statements and would like to have them clarified for me by a diver in the know.

"However, the GUE curriculum is structured with the assumption that participants are not threatened by a conviction that one style may be more effective than another."

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't GUE "threated by a conviction" that all ways of diving besides theirs is not "effective"?

"GUE representatives are not attempting to label other techniques ineffective or dangerous, but they would be irresponsible not to feature the highly effective and popular style used by all of our members."

OK, so meathods other than DIR aren't ineffective/dangerous but it is irresponsible to use these other techniques?

Sorry if i just ruined a such a nice polite thread :sorry19z:, but i had to spout off.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

I actually made it to the end of the thread in one sitting! Despite equipment side issues, CPR dogs, great legs... Definately need to get a life...

I didn't bother to read the whole thing, just the first post and the last three pages....I was certainly intrigued by 47 pages of what people cite as reasons they haven't taken up DIR style SCUBA. But I was afraid if it was allowed to go unchecked it would turn into another free-for-all. So I refrained, then figured hell, if it's 47 pages it must be good.

Reasons I won't do DIR:
... Maybe they're a vocal minority....has put me off to the extent that I judge the whole group. I was familiar with horgarthian, but my first experience with DIR was right here. How many times have I seen someone post a legit question about "What's the best...?" and a DIR type replies with "You don't need it," or "throw it away."[/B} If it's not DIR than NO ONE should ever consider it.

I totally see your point, it like bothers me too. I have seen that so many times I just want to pick my monitor up and throw it through the window. But then I remember my puppy might be down there, and I kinda dig my monitor, so I just kind of chuckle at the notion some people are so into themselves they can't imagine someone else as a separate entity. They are so tuned into the dogma that tuning out the static becomes so much the focus that they get kind of looped.

2. I like to read, research, learn, and play. I like to have the option of using the latest and greatest. Maybe GUE can keep up with change now (which I doubt) but the bigger they get, the slower they will accept change......

I love to read, research, learn and play too. I would like to have the disposable income to appreciate the option of using the latest and greatest to be honest. I think the reluctance to change issue is the biggest contributor to the loop.

3. I like to read, research, learn, and play. Thanks to some bad experiences with instructors, I'm primarily self-educated in SCUBA. I don't trust the GUE's attitude of "the book is an intro, the instructors will give you the rest." What if the instructor is a moron?

Well, I'll be, I like to read, research, learn and play too, what's you're screen-name mean? (ooh too personal, PM me!)

As for the self-education, that's the unexcusable fault of today's diving industry. The old model was skewed to the short term because demand required it one time. The new developing models are better geared to answer the needs of developing divers. Technology is changing, science is changing, some of the guys at the shop/gear rep level are stuck in the old school perhaps but a good number of them seem to be coming around.

4. I like to read, ..... My rig is changing as I learn and grow. I don't want it dictated to me. I like the challenge of figuring out for myself what suits me best. As I read about DIR......

So you're a reader, eh? Spend some time working out kinks the old trial and error way?

I don't disagree with the idea of such dependance on the gear configuration. I dive primarily my doubles on a bp/wing, but I dig the opportunities to throw on a KnightHawk(TM,Brought to you by ScubaPro) and slink around the shallows in a wetsuit and have flashbacks watching the sun dance on the coral and the tropical fish,...mmmm FLA baby! But I think you, and all divers really, ought to have a mentor that helps you work out those kinks. When I see two newbies on the beach trying to put together the gear they rented from (Insert Dive shop name) where they probably took an ow class within the last six months, I try to get acquainted. When I work with ow classes I highlight the local diving opportunities and encourage any of the divers who want to get involved to come along. Someone took me under their wing once, helped me understand what it all meant, illuminated me to the fact that having an ow card isn't quite like having a driver's license, but more like a learners permit and that it is a whole lot easier to learn from your mistakes if you understand that a series of bad decisions, when compiled into complete severity equate exactly to the severity of the consequences. A pair of experienced eyes is an invaluable resource, and while I like to think divers that leave our ow class are equipped to dive alone in conditions that approximate their training, as the credo's say. But I'm also cognizant that we're training them in a 12-acre quarry.

My rule of thumb is, I don't do a dive at a sight if I don't feel I have received, from someone knowledgeable of the characteristics of the site, a general understanding of the risk factors and levels, or I am accompanied by someone familiar with the characteristics of the site. I would sometimes rather have a really good briefing on the dive site from an experienced diver but for particularly hairy spots I like a good thorough briefing and an experienced buddy.

5. It's not a gear configuration, it's a lifestyle. I already have a lifestyle, I don't need yours.

Doh!! I thought we were going places kid. Keep diving safe, I don't care if you're doing it with poodles and oars man, just as long as nobody gets hurt.

You think anybody who ever put themselves willingly under water didn't think they were doing it right (TM, Brought to you by GUE) and that they understood, to some extent, the risk?

That is ultimately it however, I have a lifestyle with dive buddies who are safe, sane, and gosh-dang fun to dive with. We grow, we learn, we experiment in controlled fashion to figure out what works best for us in our environment. We watch as some folks adjust to changes in marketing of scuba one way, and others adjust another way, while others still just lose sight of the goal and close up shop. Or they cashed out as the bottom was falling from the economy and the rebound hasn't reached the recreational sectors quite enough yet. But it's getting there, SCUBA is more widespread than ever before. Quality control is down in big red (The scuba equivalent to big blue, cute eh?) and the illusion is being frayed to the point where prices are now $50 each when you and a friend come get certified. Plus you get registered for a free trip to Coz, don't think they're not selling your addy info right out from under you before you even show up for the first classroom session. Of course there is room for competition, of course off-shoot agencies are going to crop up, address a niche that exists for whatever flaw in the corporate models of the one's in existence today. I have read four or five different threads here that discuss the concepts of education in diving, some perhaps behind the closed doors where us pro's can kick off the gloves and go at it, but many in open forums.

The point being, there are many unfulfilled niches in the existing corporate structures that have become of the certification agencies. As off-shoots develop marketing strategies and capture some of that un(der)-served demographic the big corporations will shift slightly (Can anyone say Rec-Tec?) and attempt to fortify the base, perhaps win back customers, but primarily fortify what's left.

Where can an agency go when they have saturated the niche with the "Fundamentals". How many divers did their cash-flow estimates predict would advance through Tech 1, or Cave 1? How many do in actuality? If no one has ever successfully completed Cave 3, is it really a certification?

These are tough questions, well except the last it's kinda tongue-in-cheek if you couldn't tell, that will only be answered by the future. The chorus of voices will continue unabated, in the absence of their leaders they are programmed to regurgitate the party line. I find it so ironic that there was once an attempt by one of the talking heads to come out into the conversation and address the issues, slow some of the flaring image problems associated with the more vocal one, I remember a lovely ditty titled ...something something..something.. Part 1 of 3. Unfortunately, it seemed like the party line didn't fly so well for folks who hadn't shelled out $500 a head to belong to it.....and we never heard from him again. Some people are always going to find some way to be elite, and others are always going to find some way to belong. That's what creates communities and societies and sociospheres and class structures.

 

[goodknight411]

Thanks jonnythan and detroit diver for answering my questions. Thanks for doing it kindly also.

"Do you have the same feelings for Dive-Rite equipment???"
No, i think alot of the equipment is great. Right now, I don't use any DIR equipment set ups, but my buddy is thinking about it. I can see many benifits for it in certian situations. I just am not to the point of using it yet. I believe that for the diving i do, i have the set up i need. If my diving should change, i will probably look at DIR.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

Well, I'm not sure what specific posts you refer to, but much of the equipment sold today is for those that don't have a need for it. It's there for the manufacturer and shop to make money. Pure and simple.
..

Agreed, but irrelevant. I was just commenting on the side issues that were generally entertaining, but off topic.

While the posts you refer to may have touched a nerve with you (and some may have been on the abrasive side), the bottom line here is that the DIR equipment configuration actually SAVES divers money in the long run..

Again, you’re misled on my opening statement, but I agree about saving money. That's why I was initially interested in checking out DIR. I never said anything counter.

First of all, your LDS can probably see you coming a mile away. ..

Thanks for the analysis. You’re very astute in your conclusion, having never met me, dove with me, seen my gear, talked to me about gear... If it really matters to you, rest assured that my LDS had gotten very little of my money.

Secondly, DIR changes when things are deemed to be NECESSARY. If it's not necessary, we don't use it. Can't be more simple than that. ..

OK, I can see the strict gear configuration in certain circumstances, but not in a 'one-size fits all' manner. My point was that I am capable of deciding what's necessary for me, depending on my likes, dislikes, and the circumstances of the dive. I'm not saying DIR is wrong altogether, just not for me. I think that's the purpose of this thread, why did I decide to not go DIR.

You like gadgets (the lastest and the greatest). But does that make you a better diver?..

First of all, I was referring to technology, not gadgets per se. Does the latest technology make me a better diver? Not necessarily, but it doesn't automatically make me a worse one, either. I do also like gadgets. I like having the option of carrying along some toy while on a recreational dive. Am I going to die because of it? Get real.
If I use something that's not on the DIR list, then I'm not DIR, and according to most, DIW. I like making decisions for myself, and that’s not automatically wrong.

Self taught? Bad experiences? So you throw out the whole instructor idea? Interesting. Do yourself a favor and read the requirements for becoming a GUE instructor. Then compare it to the agencies that you are familiar with. Bottom line-they don't give "morons" an instructor card in GUE...

Why? I already know that I don’t want to go DIR, so couldn't care less about the instructor qualifications. I wouldn’t say that I throw out the whole instructor idea, I just believe that it’s up to me to research and think through what’s being taught. I am not going to take the instructor’s statements at face value.

I know. We've heard it forever. Personal choice. Which works perfectly fine until you get into the water and have a cluster because everyone has excercised their personal choice and no one has a clue how to solve the "personal choice" problems...

So DIR divers are the only ones that can know their gear, their buddies gear, and think through a problem when it presents itself?

The bigger they are, the harder they fall..........

Not sure what you mean here. I’m not that tall, large, or pious. But thank you for illustrating the point that has been made in this thread so often, that most DIR divers are arrogant elitists who believe anyone who isn’t DIR is automatically DIW.

I am not telling you that DIR is stupid. If it works for you than fine. But I do take issue with the recurring theme that if I’m not DIR I’m DIW and am going to die.

Dive safe.

Thanks, I always have and will strive to continue to do so, even if I am DIW.

 

[O2BBubbleFree]

I didn't bother to read the whole thing, just the first post and the last three pages....I was certainly intrigued by 47 pages of what people cite as reasons they haven't taken up DIR style SCUBA. But I was afraid if it was allowed to go unchecked it would turn into another free-for-all. So I refrained, then figured hell, if it's 47 pages it must be good.



I totally see your point, it like bothers me too. I have seen that so many times I just want to pick my monitor up and throw it through the window. But then I remember my puppy might be down there, and I kinda dig my monitor, so I just kind of chuckle at the notion some people are so into themselves they can't imagine someone else as a separate entity. They are so tuned into the dogma that tuning out the static becomes so much the focus that they get kind of looped.



I love to read, research, learn and play too. I would like to have the disposable income to appreciate the option of using the latest and greatest to be honest. I think the reluctance to change issue is the biggest contributor to the loop.



Well, I'll be, I like to read, research, learn and play too, what's you're screen-name mean? (ooh too personal, PM me!)

As for the self-education, that's the unexcusable fault of today's diving industry. The old model was skewed to the short term because demand required it one time. The new developing models are better geared to answer the needs of developing divers. Technology is changing, science is changing, some of the guys at the shop/gear rep level are stuck in the old school perhaps but a good number of them seem to be coming around.



So you're a reader, eh? Spend some time working out kinks the old trial and error way?

I don't disagree with the idea of such dependance on the gear configuration. I dive primarily my doubles on a bp/wing, but I dig the opportunities to throw on a KnightHawk(TM,Brought to you by ScubaPro) and slink around the shallows in a wetsuit and have flashbacks watching the sun dance on the coral and the tropical fish,...mmmm FLA baby! But I think you, and all divers really, ought to have a mentor that helps you work out those kinks. When I see two newbies on the beach trying to put together the gear they rented from (Insert Dive shop name) where they probably took an ow class within the last six months, I try to get acquainted. When I work with ow classes I highlight the local diving opportunities and encourage any of the divers who want to get involved to come along. Someone took me under their wing once, helped me understand what it all meant, illuminated me to the fact that having an ow card isn't quite like having a driver's license, but more like a learners permit and that it is a whole lot easier to learn from your mistakes if you understand that a series of bad decisions, when compiled into complete severity equate exactly to the severity of the consequences. A pair of experienced eyes is an invaluable resource, and while I like to think divers that leave our ow class are equipped to dive alone in conditions that approximate their training, as the credo's say. But I'm also cognizant that we're training them in a 12-acre quarry.

My rule of thumb is, I don't do a dive at a sight if I don't feel I have received, from someone knowledgeable of the characteristics of the site, a general understanding of the risk factors and levels, or I am accompanied by someone familiar with the characteristics of the site. I would sometimes rather have a really good briefing on the dive site from an experienced diver but for particularly hairy spots I like a good thorough briefing and an experienced buddy.



Doh!! I thought we were going places kid. Keep diving safe, I don't care if you're doing it with poodles and oars man, just as long as nobody gets hurt.

You think anybody who ever put themselves willingly under water didn't think they were doing it right (TM, Brought to you by GUE) and that they understood, to some extent, the risk?

That is ultimately it however, I have a lifestyle with dive buddies who are safe, sane, and gosh-dang fun to dive with. We grow, we learn, we experiment in controlled fashion to figure out what works best for us in our environment. We watch as some folks adjust to changes in marketing of scuba one way, and others adjust another way, while others still just lose sight of the goal and close up shop. Or they cashed out as the bottom was falling from the economy and the rebound hasn't reached the recreational sectors quite enough yet. But it's getting there, SCUBA is more widespread than ever before. Quality control is down in big red (The scuba equivalent to big blue, cute eh?) and the illusion is being frayed to the point where prices are now $50 each when you and a friend come get certified. Plus you get registered for a free trip to Coz, don't think they're not selling your addy info right out from under you before you even show up for the first classroom session. Of course there is room for competition, of course off-shoot agencies are going to crop up, address a niche that exists for whatever flaw in the corporate models of the one's in existence today. I have read four or five different threads here that discuss the concepts of education in diving, some perhaps behind the closed doors where us pro's can kick off the gloves and go at it, but many in open forums.

The point being, there are many unfulfilled niches in the existing corporate structures that have become of the certification agencies. As off-shoots develop marketing strategies and capture some of that un(der)-served demographic the big corporations will shift slightly (Can anyone say Rec-Tec?) and attempt to fortify the base, perhaps win back customers, but primarily fortify what's left.

Where can an agency go when they have saturated the niche with the "Fundamentals". How many divers did their cash-flow estimates predict would advance through Tech 1, or Cave 1? How many do in actuality? If no one has ever successfully completed Cave 3, is it really a certification?

These are tough questions, well except the last it's kinda tongue-in-cheek if you couldn't tell, that will only be answered by the future. The chorus of voices will continue unabated, in the absence of their leaders they are programmed to regurgitate the party line. I find it so ironic that there was once an attempt by one of the talking heads to come out into the conversation and address the issues, slow some of the flaring image problems associated with the more vocal one, I remember a lovely ditty titled ...something something..something.. Part 1 of 3. Unfortunately, it seemed like the party line didn't fly so well for folks who hadn't shelled out $500 a head to belong to it.....and we never heard from him again. Some people are always going to find some way to be elite, and others are always going to find some way to belong. That's what creates communities and societies and sociospheres and class structures.

CD_in_Chitown, I tried to respond to your reply to my post, but don't have the time or interest level to try and figure out your point(s). Sorry.