The normalization of dives to 100 meters and beyond

[Barnaby'sDad]

I'm not sure if you noticed that this is the Rebreather Diving forum. The question was not for the average recreational divers, but rather of the Rebreather divers which is as you know, very technical and often of deeper dive profiles, even if done for recreation.

I did not. Owned by my little phone screen. My bad.

 

[markmud]

Today, these are apparently the sort of dives that a...

Thanks for the thread 2airishuman...I am enjoying your premise and will post later when I have more time.

Normalization of deviance

Hi Storker,

I agree with your underlying point. Some have opined that the people performing these technical dives have accepted the risk. The Ocean can be a hostile place for humans. Tread lightly if you value your life.

More later...

thanks,
markm

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

It is unlikely in my view that the dive community will see a major leap forward in technology in the short term. The next 20 years or so are more likely to be concerned with climate issues and a re-evaluation of what we do for leisure and it's impact on the planet. Either that or space tourism will become the big new thing and the thrill seekers will head off in the other direction to the world's oceans. How long we survive as a species then is anyone's guess.

If we fail to survive as a species, it will be because we have succumbed to psychological collapse due to over-exposure to melodramatic bs.

And if we want to survive as a species, spreading across multiple locations in the solar system would be an excellent start.

 

[Superlyte27]

There are years of workup in cold water, soliciting support divers, picking the right season to maximize the thermocline, and setup involved. To say that we're flippantly approaching this like a ho hum recreational dive is totally inaccurate.

Let me know if I can help.

 

[W W Meixner]

A few recreational divers completing 100M+ dives and posting about it online does not equal "normalization."

-The vast majority of people that have gotten certified to dive aren't going to hit dive 20 in their lifetime. I literally know more people that have been certified for 5+ years with x < 20 dives than those with 20+.

-A good chunk of the people that even stick around past dive 20 won't hit 100', as they're only going to be doing the occasional warm water vacation reef dive.

It's along the lines of when someone says that "everyone is doing 'x' ." No...not everyone is doing something... someone just happens to know a couple people that are doing something and they are choosing to inflate the actual proportion of people in question.

I'm sure there's more recreational divers diving solo than recreational divers diving to 100M or more...and the former makes up a small percentage of recreational divers.

BD...

In light of recent events...it's very hard to respond without being dis-respectful...and or offensive...

Personally...and not referencing any particular incident...I find it irresponsible/careless and highly offensive to leave distraught orphans/spouses/surviving parents behind as the result of an unsuccessful stunt...

Damage mitigation is emmence...and if one were to follow the lives of the immediate family survivors...especially un-supported orphans who may be forced from their homes and left pennyless as the result of...the far-reaching impact hasen't even begun...

There is no normalization...

Respectfully...

W...

 

[Schwob]

BD...

In light of recent events...it's very hard to respond without being dis-respectful...and or offensive...

Personally...and not referencing any particular incident...I find it irresponsible/careless and highly offensive to leave distraught orphans/spouses/surviving parents behind as the result of an unsuccessful stunt...

Damage mitigation is emmence...and if one were to follow the lives of the immediate family survivors...especially un-supported orphans who may be forced from their homes and left pennyless as the result of...the far-reaching impact hasen't even begun...

There is no normalization...

Respectfully...

W...

As part of a married couple (comparatively divers in begnin conditions so) I, on the one hand agree with your thought there.
Then on the other hand, my wive and I also i.e. travel in the same plane. Something likely vastly less risky than deep diving and vastly more convenient than making separate planes work, but yet also indicative of our willingness to compromise on things... And risks aside, we certainly are also vastly more out of control of our own destiny on a plane (or a boat...) than on a recreational dive, but we compromise... and probably are perceptive to compromising more as time goes on... ... Just as a thought... no immediate "morals" offered.

And remarking: Good topic @2airishuman !

 

[silent running]

Somewhere along the line, dives to 100 meters (330 feet) became normal dives that reasonable people might choose to make, with proper training and equipment. Some divers accustomed to such dives have gone so far as to characterize them as "like a stroll in the park, really."

Today, these are apparently the sort of dives that a married couple who are both accomplished divers might reasonably choose to make.

There have been several fatalities a year on dives to these depths.

I understand that no agency offers training for dives beyond 100 meters, but there are master classes offered by individual instructors that include 150 meter dives, or even 200 meter dives..

I offer these questions for discussion:

1. The depth at which it is considered safe to dive for enjoyment (rather than in pursuit of commercial, scientific, or military objectives) has been made greater over the years. Unlike air dives, which are limited by narcosis, or normoxic trimix dives, which are limited by ppo2, there is no particular depth at which a hypoxic trimix dive becomes impractical (until HPNS becomes a limiting factor at far greater depths than are now being dived regularly). Rather, there is a continuum of incremental difficulty and risk as depth increases; and there are incrementally greater demands on equipment. Where will this end? Will we have PADI Tech 500 with a unit on safe practices for hydrogen blending? Is this a good thing?
   
   
2. At what point does the standard of care for sufficient surface support include having a chamber on site? It has been pointed out in A&I threads that any commercial diving operation to 300 feet would not be conducted without ready access to a chamber.
   
   
3. OSHA has not shown much interest in dive instruction. Dive instruction at recreational depths (38 meters/130 feet max) has historically been very safe. As the depths to which technical diving students are taken increase, this may no longer be the case. Could the industry as a whole be inviting unwanted regulatory attention by training divers for ever-greater depths?
   
   
4. How does the thinking diver characterize these dives in discussion with non-divers? Given what we know today, and the training available today, can 100 meter/330 foot dives be conducted safely? Do we talk about accidents at these depths as being isolated incidents that could happen to anyone, or should these be characterized as risky activities that most divers don't condone? Is 330 feet the new 130 feet, or is there some other limit now?
   
   
5. Has it become acceptable to pursue depth for its own sake? In OWD and AOW classwork, as far as I know from all agencies, students are told not to pursue deep dives just for the sake of depth -- but rather to use the ability to dive deeper to allow them to pursue other dive objectives that require it. For those of you who make regular hypoxic trimix dives, have your deeper dives opened up a new world for you that you could not otherwise visit? Or is it just something that is satisfying because of its difficulty?

Thanks for the thoughtful questions, perfectly worth asking. However, anyone at all familiar with hypoxic tri-mix dive planning learns very quickly that carrying enough bail out and the limits of deco theory and knowledge mean this type of diving falls under the category of personal risk preferences. In other words, I think it will be a long time before sub 100m diving is approached casually by any thinking diver. I doubt any boat captain allows anyone to do these dives without a personal reference from another qualified diver who is a regular customer. I would be surprised if the number of civilians doing these dives regularly is more than several hundred worldwide...

 

[arew+4]

Leif Erickson and his people had lousy sailing tech but made it west to the Americas a few times before giving up likely due to risk and loss.

Chris Columbus and his crew had better tech, better press, and look what happened to the paradise they found.

I hope ultra deep diving stays a Viking sort of thing.

Personally I cannot envision any sort of planned deco obligation beyond 5 or 10 minutes.
At least until they come out with a dive computer that includes several solitaire games

 

[2airishuman]

A lot of the setup for deep long dives is not glamorous and not publicized much - like the habitats the WKPP was using long ago or what the KUR guys (and females) in FL are using for 10+ hrs in the water. It probably would be good to show what serious support looks like more so that you can see that some of these big serious dives are taken seriously and have literally a whole team behind them.

I don't do these sorts of dives and I do recognize that you have firsthand expertise. Yet there have been fatal accidents that do not involve a high level of support -- no habitat, no dive team placing stages before or cleaning them up after. I would hold up as examples the double fatality at Eagles Nest about a year ago, and the recent double fatality in Lake Michigan. In each case, there was surface support in the form of other divers with emergency gas on hand, but nothing beyond that---no chamber aboard, no habitat, no bailout placed at depth beyond what the divers took with them, no communications. I think the track record of the WKPP and some other exploration oriented groups shows that it is possible to conduct dives to these depths safely. What I find troubling is that a buddy team -- whether husband and wife or two friends -- would undertake such dives with no more outside support than, say, a dive on the Spiegel Grove.

Part of the attraction of a rebreather is that it allows dives that were previously team dives (due to gas logistics) to be conducted by buddy pairs or solo divers.

 

[2airishuman]

I would be surprised if the number of civilians doing these dives regularly is more than several hundred worldwide...

I can think of five publicized fatalities in dives to around 100m in the last few years. If there are indeed only a few hundred people making these dives, they must indeed be hazardous. I think they were predominantly just shy of 100m rather than just more than 100m, perhaps that's why.