hmm... maybe they learned from past mistakes, and changed their methodology?
The New Scubapro Regulator
- Thread starter Mpscubatoytech
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halocline
Contributor
I think it's just a matter of getting the bugs worked out in testing rather than the first few full production runs. Maybe that's much harder than it seems; after all the yoke problem with the MK20 ocurred in something like a few in several thousand regs, and required negligence by the tech(not adhering to the specified torque value).
They had no problems (that I know of) with the G250V, and since this is another retro-sort of-design, maybe this one will be the same.
They had no problems (that I know of) with the G250V, and since this is another retro-sort of-design, maybe this one will be the same.
Wayward Son
Contributor
It's supposed to be pretty. I & others think they missed the target & made it rather unpretty. I like the chrome, but the overall look doesn't work for me.
NudeDiver
Contributor
I don't think it's pretty either. Generally speaking, I think that nothing looks dumber than chrome (esp. on a vehicle).
Nevertheless, it's clear they spent effort and money in trying to make it look pretty. My point was that if they didn't do this, if they just make it as expensive as it needed to be to get the desired performance, but didn't add cost in an attempt to improve appearance, that the improved affordability could lead to a more successful product.
Wayward Son
Contributor
now, all that being said, it's quite possible the damn thing will be a hit.
I'm old school. I started diving in the early 1970's. Our regs were the US Diver's Aquarius & Conshelf lines, Scubapro Mk5/R109 (which I own, love & still dive today), etc.
Younger divers not tainted by that history may well think this is one gorgeous chunk of bling, I dunno.
It just doesn't appeal to me.
I'm old school. I started diving in the early 1970's. Our regs were the US Diver's Aquarius & Conshelf lines, Scubapro Mk5/R109 (which I own, love & still dive today), etc.
Younger divers not tainted by that history may well think this is one gorgeous chunk of bling, I dunno.
It just doesn't appeal to me.
I like the classic round design of the R109 and I would have preferred to see something a bit more along that line. But then they would be competing with an awful lot of R109s that are still out there and often on e-bay for under $50.
----
And yes Matt is exactly right. Way back when, SP used to use the ad slogan "deep down you want the best" and before they released a product it got aggressively tested in very demanding conditions by divers who used it in conditions that went far beyond the average warm water reef dive - ensuring that it if could reliably survive demanding conditions, it was totally bullet proof in less demanding warm water conditions. However the reverse cannot be said with any degree of confidence.
The first stage seat issue is a good example. Seats get cold anyway due to adibatic cooling. In warm water or cold the cooling is about the same - but the ability for the reg to recover that heat from the surrounding water drops exponentially as the temperature gets closer and closer to freezing. So with colder water and greatly reduced heat transfer, the seat temperature is much colder than in a warm water dive and the seat material may not hold up as well to repeated contact with the orifice at those much colder temps. Not surprisingly, given a lack of extensive cold water testing, seat life was awful in the early Mk 15s and Mk 10 Plus regulators in cold water, while the later seats made from new material were much more reliable, but that relaibility came to late to save the reputation of the regs in question and both had short lived production runs.
The X650 was intended to replace the D400 which was discotinued on schedule despite the X650 being delayed in development and the X650 was then released well before the bugs were worked out and the early X650s performed very well for about 20 dives before certain key lever parts wore and greatly increased inhalation effort. Had the regs received more extensive testing, the problem would have easily bene detected and corrected before series production began.
Similarly, several divers I knew used Sherwood Wisdom computers and the failure rate on average for the early computers was about 3% (quite high by industry standards). However 4 of the 5 local cold water divers I knew with wisdom computers had failures (and 80% failure rate for the first computer per user) and most of them had multiple Wisdom computers fail. I personally had 3 of them fail. The issue was I think that in summer time cold water alpine lake diving we would go from a sunny boat deck in 90 degree weather (with computer temps probably over 100 degrees) and with in a minute or so go from that to a 70 degree surface layer and then to a 35 degree bottom temp. I suspect the computer developed problems over time due to differential expansion of the computer as it heated and cooled in a manner not found in most diving situations. Another possibilty may have been the high altitude that the diving occurred at. Either way, had Sherwood sent the computer to us for testing prior to release, we would have encountered the problem in a month or two of diving. Had the problem had been recognized and fixed before series production started, Sherwood would have saved tons on money on warranty replacements (3 computers in my case alone) and the reliability of the original Wisdom would have been much better, resulting in improved sales.
So yes, based on my experience and product history, testing by sales reps and members of the press in nice warm water locations does not always result in the detection of many of the problems that can and will occur in real world situations by divers in more challenging conditions such as cold water, extreme depths, etc.
----
And yes Matt is exactly right. Way back when, SP used to use the ad slogan "deep down you want the best" and before they released a product it got aggressively tested in very demanding conditions by divers who used it in conditions that went far beyond the average warm water reef dive - ensuring that it if could reliably survive demanding conditions, it was totally bullet proof in less demanding warm water conditions. However the reverse cannot be said with any degree of confidence.
The first stage seat issue is a good example. Seats get cold anyway due to adibatic cooling. In warm water or cold the cooling is about the same - but the ability for the reg to recover that heat from the surrounding water drops exponentially as the temperature gets closer and closer to freezing. So with colder water and greatly reduced heat transfer, the seat temperature is much colder than in a warm water dive and the seat material may not hold up as well to repeated contact with the orifice at those much colder temps. Not surprisingly, given a lack of extensive cold water testing, seat life was awful in the early Mk 15s and Mk 10 Plus regulators in cold water, while the later seats made from new material were much more reliable, but that relaibility came to late to save the reputation of the regs in question and both had short lived production runs.
The X650 was intended to replace the D400 which was discotinued on schedule despite the X650 being delayed in development and the X650 was then released well before the bugs were worked out and the early X650s performed very well for about 20 dives before certain key lever parts wore and greatly increased inhalation effort. Had the regs received more extensive testing, the problem would have easily bene detected and corrected before series production began.
Similarly, several divers I knew used Sherwood Wisdom computers and the failure rate on average for the early computers was about 3% (quite high by industry standards). However 4 of the 5 local cold water divers I knew with wisdom computers had failures (and 80% failure rate for the first computer per user) and most of them had multiple Wisdom computers fail. I personally had 3 of them fail. The issue was I think that in summer time cold water alpine lake diving we would go from a sunny boat deck in 90 degree weather (with computer temps probably over 100 degrees) and with in a minute or so go from that to a 70 degree surface layer and then to a 35 degree bottom temp. I suspect the computer developed problems over time due to differential expansion of the computer as it heated and cooled in a manner not found in most diving situations. Another possibilty may have been the high altitude that the diving occurred at. Either way, had Sherwood sent the computer to us for testing prior to release, we would have encountered the problem in a month or two of diving. Had the problem had been recognized and fixed before series production started, Sherwood would have saved tons on money on warranty replacements (3 computers in my case alone) and the reliability of the original Wisdom would have been much better, resulting in improved sales.
So yes, based on my experience and product history, testing by sales reps and members of the press in nice warm water locations does not always result in the detection of many of the problems that can and will occur in real world situations by divers in more challenging conditions such as cold water, extreme depths, etc.
Personally I think those that say they don't like the new A700 should post some pictures of their favorite Scubpro regs like the R109 and the R156, have them side by side so we ignorrant unwashed masses could see what we are missing.
Remember, don't hold your breathe, just breathe in and out...
Remember, don't hold your breathe, just breathe in and out...
Wayward Son
Contributor
this is a 109:
R
redacted
Guest
A good picture of a 156 and a price point: ScubaPro Vintage Scuba Regulator Works perfect -rebuilt - eBay (item 310132520723 end time Apr-09-09 15:54:59 PDT)
superstar
Contributor
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