The Canadian Seal Slaughter

[fisherdvm]

If the sealers cannot make money in a manner that supports a horrible industry (the fur industry) and is overally violent and disguisting perhaps they should move somewhere else. I don't see a sealer in any different light then a long line fishermen, whaler, or shark finner. I don't care whether it's legal for them to hunt seals or not.

I am all in support of more humane way to harvest fur. But I don't see the violence in an act to destroy an animal. We are too protected since birth, and have never observed how an animal is slaughtered. I was fortunate to see how animals got on my plate. I've seen chicken, turkey, and pig slaughter house. And how my parent used to kill our chickens for the plate. So clubbing is not abhorrent violence, but just another method to destroy an animal humanely.

Aquaman, perhaps you should direct your energy toward banning the leg hold trap? It is legal in most states. Most animals caught in these traps are alive and suffering (minimally, to painfuly) for 0 to 24 hours (at least the law require that one must check the trap daily). And their life ends with being clubbed on the head with a stick. The only problem again, as I have pointed out - humane traps can kill non targeted animals like dogs and cats - or is much less effective. Trapping has been a part of native american culture for years with the use of snares. As humane as snares are, they can't be use in many states, as non targeted animals can get killed.

Your comment about the dead sea scrolls suggest you have some insight into early Christian literature. They are fascinating to read, but once you start to accept one, are you going to accept all? Then you have a very messed up christian church, if you start to accept books like the gospel of St. Thomas. Christ also say love one another. How can you share this love if you can not be in the shoe of the fishermen/sealer, and see the limitation of the resources in their community. To ask them to simply "modernize", is like forcing them to move to the larger cities and simply standing in the unemployment line like the rest of us. I would suggest you start a fund to pay for scholarship for sealers to get better education?

 

[wardric]

I am all in support of more humane way to harvest fur. But I don't see the violence in an act to destroy an animal. We are too protected since birth, and have never observed how an animal is slaughtered. I was fortunate to see how animals got on my plate. I've seen chicken, turkey, and pig slaughter house. And how my parent used to kill our chickens for the plate. So clubbing is not abhorrent violence, but just another method to destroy an animal humanely.

Aquaman, perhaps you should direct your energy toward banning the leg hold trap? It is legal in most states. Most animals caught in these traps are alive and suffering (minimally, to painfuly) for 0 to 24 hours (at least the law require that one must check the trap daily). And their life ends with being clubbed on the head with a stick. The only problem again, as I have pointed out - humane traps can kill non targeted animals like dogs and cats - or is much less effective. Trapping has been a part of native american culture for years with the use of snares. As humane as snares are, they can't be use in many states, as non targeted animals can get killed.

Your comment about the dead sea scrolls suggest you have some insight into early Christian literature. They are fascinating to read, but once you start to accept one, are you going to accept all? Then you have a very messed up christian church, if you start to accept books like the gospel of St. Thomas. Christ also say love one another. How can you share this love if you can not be in the shoe of the fishermen/sealer, and see the limitation of the resources in their community. To ask them to simply "modernize", is like forcing them to move to the larger cities and simply standing in the unemployment line like the rest of us. I would suggest you start a fund to pay for scholarship for sealers to get better education?

Leg hold (retention) traps have been banned for many animals in Quebec except for fox and the like (i'll get back to that later) or when coupled with a quick way to end the animal's life. For example, a beaver leg hold traps must be attached with a drowning system. The animal gets caught (it does not hurt, I've tried it myself), flee underwater but cannot get back to the surface because it's a one way sliding system. The animal will drown quickly.

I dont like leghold traps with no drowning system myself and would not use em' unless in a survival situation. I think once caught, an animal should be killed in a quick way.

It's funny coz Evil Canada decided to be a leader in humane way to trap due to pressure from saintly Europe. Europe insisted more humane ways be used for canadian trapping... except in the case of red fox and you know why? Because they still use painfull ways to trap and kill those so they would not be obligated to use these more humane methods themselves... I could also talk about the eradication of muskrats in some european countries. They kill all they can without considering pain and dont even use the fur. And after that, they sign big petitions against sealing. Talk about being hypocrits...

 

[aquaman_06]

Again, like I said earlier Fisher I am against any slaughter of anything (animals or human). I consider the Iraq War the U.S. is currently waging a needless slaughter of human beings so I am totally against that and am a very vocal opponent of it. Though for the sake of this discussion which is based on sealing and SS's involvement in that activity I don't see where leg hold traps that are meant for other animals comes into play. Neither do farm animals or anything else. Perhaps that is fodder for a different thread or maybe even a different message board.

As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, religion, etc I have read about and studied a variety of different religions. I find religion a very fascinating subject and feel that ignorance towards other's religions is a real problem in the world today. I try to be tolerant of other people not just on a religious basis but any basis whatsoever. As a sociology student you learn about other cultures and when I did several internships regarding troubled children I quickly saw that being judgmental and discriminating wasn't the way to gain rapport.

One thing though Fisher that I cannot understand or tolerate is why human beings feel they can abuse living things with little to no conviction. Leg hold traps as you mentioned, slaughter houses, large scale commercial fishing, whaling, shark finning, poultry farming, veal slaughter, lamb slaughter, etc, etc, etc are all examples of abuses that are very difficult to tolerate. As I stated earlier I would love to be a vegetarian but have a digestive disorder that makes it tough for me to eat many different vegetables. Compile that with lactose intolerance and without meat in my diet I might as well eat plastic. My fiance is a vegetarian and finds that lifestyle very fulfilling.

I do sympathize with the sealers, note that time and time again I have said how I feel it's a terrible tragedy that 4 of them were killed. I feel very sorry for the families of these men since it's very likely that the man of the house being a fishermen was the primary income generator and I am sure it will cause economic distress in the household. For the record Fisher I don't look at the sealers in a negative light and view them as gutless murderers and disgusting pigs that should be hung up and skun alive (much like the seals are). I view them as people who live in and are accustom to a tradition that is used to generate income. Actually Fisher I feel very sorry for the sealers. I cannot imagine (at least I hope) that mashing and bashing animals all day on moving ice floats and getting all bloody and messy is fun.

I can't think being a "sealer" is a very enjoyable job. I think it's unfortunate that today people have to make a living that way and it's even more depressing that several men died this year trying to do so. That said I do demonize the fur industry not necessarily only for the seal hunt but the purchase of furs from 3rd world countries like China. You want to see animal abuse on a scale so massive it's almost out of control research the Chinese fur industry. 70% of the fur you see on the backs of people in the U.S. comes from China.

I am totally 100% against any fur trade and just don't understand it at all. In a day and age when a synthetic fiber is far more efficient at keeping you warm and cheaper WHY do you NEED an animals skin to wear. I find it completely disgusting and am far more angry at the people that wear fur totally ignorant of where it came from or what died to provide it then I am at the sealer that knows darn well how the fur was taken.

My entire family is made up of avid fishermen and hunters. My family in Southern MD used to have a commercial fishing license and are still avid in fishing the Chesapeake Bay. My father is an avid fresh and saltwater fishermen as well as hunter. I have always found fishermen to be typically be avid conservationists as well. I know my family in Southern MD travel all across the Atlantic, Pacific and Caribbean Sea's to fish and are very educated on oceanic eco-systems and their decline. I believe a person can be a fishermen/hunter and an ardent conservationist at the same time.

I just feel, as I have said 1 million times now that the seal hunt is one tradition, along with many others that should go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[wardric]

fur, or leather, when well managed, is a renewable ressource which cause minimal pollution.

Sythetics on the other hand is made of petroleum products therefore even when well managed, it will never be renewable. It produces more pollution also and to be a lot cheaper, like you said Aquaman, it causes a lot of child labor abuses or else, it would be more expensive.

I do wear synthetics all the time. They are more efficient, lighter and for the type of activities I do, it's a must. But I wont spit on the fur industry for reasons mentionned above.

 

[fisherdvm]

As long as we continue to introduce non native species and disrupt the ecology of our environment - we will continue to have a need for hunting, trapping, and poisoning.

We poison sea lamprey, and use poison to manage small lakes and ponds.

We hunt and destroy over populated white tail deer to control disease (tuberculosis).

We beg hunters and trappers to go after nutria (which has no monetary value due to the anti-fur movement in the US) and pay them only for the TAIL.

I have mixed feeling about the promotion of wearing of fur. In some way, we should promote the wearing of nutria, as it is a species damaging the environment, and threatening other species. But I also do not want to encourage trappers either. I think most legitimate trappers will try to release pets. But about 2 years ago, they found alot of pet carcasses in our area. The news media portrayed it as a sick man who killed dogs for the fun of it. My opinion is, it is a fur trapper who does not want his traps sprung by pets running loose.

We can't stop stupid people from letting their pet roam free. These pets cause harm to wildlife and the environment, but it is not right to kill them either. I see where you are coming from Aquaman. I just wish there is a common ground where we can balance taking care of man, and taking care of the environment.

 

[fisherdvm]

Leg hold traps as you mentioned, slaughter houses, large scale commercial fishing, whaling, shark finning, poultry farming, veal slaughter, lamb slaughter, etc, etc, etc are all examples of abuses that are very difficult to tolerate. As I stated earlier I would love to be a vegetarian but have a digestive disorder that makes it tough for me to eat many different vegetables. Compile that with lactose intolerance and without meat in my diet I might as well eat plastic. My fiance is a vegetarian and finds that lifestyle very fulfilling.

You are lumping too many things in one sentence. Slaughter houses usually humanely destroy animals. Meat & fish - Hyfoma.com This link has excellent description of how it is done. And it is very humane. It is the preslaughter transportation and preparation that can be improved.

Veal slaughter is not an issue, it is how veal calves are raised is inhumane.

Lamb are usually field raised, and either slaughtered as is, or fattened very briefly, so I don't see eating lamb is a "humane vs. inhumane issue".

Poultry farming can certainly decrease density - but we would likely see a 30% or more rise in the cost of egg and poultry. Folks who complains that it is cruel to debeak chicks with heated razors apparently did not remember how they were circumcised. When I used to do it, the babies actually cried much less when you used anesthetic. My guess is 80% of pediatricians and OB docs do not use any anesthetic.

I don't see a problem with large scale commercial fisheries, if we can manage damage to the ocean floor, minimize by catch, and able to regulate harvest in international water - which will never happen.

 

[wardric]

I have read most of the replies posted since my last post. Not all but most. Wardric, you and I just don't see eye to eye, doubt we ever will. As I have stated time and time again I am against sealing - I have given countless reasons why I am against it and no matter what any person tells me I will continue to be against it. I am also against the notion that you can make light of or joke about or be happy about the death of innocent people. Do I feel SS has done this in the case of the sealers - perhaps in a round about way. Will I totally discredit SS over this matter, no I won't. Does it lower my opinion of Paul Watson, not so much though if I were to ever speak the man I would inquire why he has been so immature in this campaign.

Paul Watson is a very dedicated and driven conservationist. Perhaps he is too driven at times and perhaps there are times that he allows his desire to better our oceans overtake his reason. He as well as SS crew have done things that I highly disagree with but I believe their end justified their means. I have been to Newfoundland and hope to return soon. I feel Newfoundland is one of the most magical and interesting places on Earth and I sympathize with the fishermen there that need the seal hunt to make a living. One of my favorite bands, Great Big Sea is from Newfoundland and their song "Ferryland Sailor" talks about the plight of the Newfoundlander fishermen. I'm not ignorant to the situation as I have been accused of being, I have close relatives that live in Newfoundland. I disagree with the large scale slaughter of ANYTHING not just seals and feel that people could find more humane ways to make a living.

People have compared this slaughter to many things that for the sake of this discussion are irrelevant. I disagree with the slaughter of animals on any front but this discussion pertains to the slaughter of seals and SS's involvement.

As for Wardric's comments about comparing Watson to Christ I will address those. First many people need to realize that not everyone on Earth follows the same religion. One criticism of contemporary Christians is their unwillingness to accept other's beliefs. This is easy to understand when writers like John MacArthur publish books that claim anyone who does not follow his personal interpretation of the Christian religion will burn. To address your statement Wardric I will recommend some research.

The Essene Church of Christ and the Essene faith believe, based on direct translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls that Christ was in fact a vegetarian and ardent conservationist. They preach that when Christ spoke of peace and caring for the living he meant all living things not just human beings. They also have a Lord’s Prayer also translated from ancient prophetic texts that goes the same as the Lord ’s Prayer Christians speak but after the initial text are through goes on about the caring of Mother Earth and how to live in harmony with our natural world via peace and caring.

Many Christian faiths speak about Christ traveling and living with Buddhist monks and taking in and accepting the beliefs of other religions. If you research some of these ideas you quickly learn that there was much more to Jesus Christ then your minister may be telling you each Sunday.

We must remember that the Bible was once hand copied by monks in ancient monasteries. I read an article that research by a scholar in religious theory showed that some of these monks had family business’ that made their wealth by selling lambs for slaughter at Passover. He theorized that these monk’s altered the text of the bible to make it appear that Christ was not a vegetarian. It would be tough to sell Passover lambs if the entire religious population believed their savior preached not eating meat.

Ancient Essene texts told of a diet that Christ laid out based on eating only fruits from plants. Christ, they believe was a fruitatarian that would only eat the fruit of a vegetable or plant that would not cause the plant to die and stop producing fruit for others.

I work to broaden young people’s minds about the environment regarding our oceans. I became a Coral Reef Biology instructor to do this and do school presentations for local schools through the Oceans for Youth Foundation. I have talked to students about SS because they have asked me about the organization and I always tell them the pro’s and con’s of that type of active approach to conservationism. The fact is many people don’t know ANYTHING about ecology or how an eco-system functions therefore don’t have any appreciation for the animals that live there. I believe though education at a young level and introducing children to new ideas we can make an impact in the world. As long as the children of sealers are indoctrinated to make a living mashing in seals skulls, progress on the marine mammal front will be tough whether or not the hunt is legal.

As for Fisher's statements I believe in protecting all animals cute, cuddly or otherwise. It's not just about protecting the cute ones - it's about protecting them all. To start beating the religious thing to death it's odd to me that Buddha preached caring for and not harming living things (all living things). They say that Mohammond was bathing in a river and when he got out a rabbit was sleeping on his tunick so he cut the tunick around the rabbit for he would not disturb it. Christ spoke about peace and love and harmony with each other but our current President seems to feel bombing the heck out of a country and sending our young people off to die is a good way to do that. He is backed largely by right wing Christian fundamentalists who also support the U.S.'s use of the death penalty. As a whole the human race has skewed the teachings of many religion's founders and our own scientist's to fit what we want and how we want it to be.

If the sealers cannot make money in a manner that supports a horrible industry (the fur industry) and is overally violent and disguisting perhaps they should move somewhere else. I don't see a sealer in any different light then a long line fishermen, whaler, or shark finner. I don't care whether it's legal for them to hunt seals or not.

I will not talk about religion here since it's against the TOS but feel free to come discuss it in "the Pub", It is allowed there and I'll be glad to exchange with you on the subject.

You know Aquaman, I think we are more alike than you think. We just dont view life and nature the same way. I know you think the way you do for the good reason. You are not like the chearleaders here who protest only to protest without having a clue on what they say. You work in conservationism and biology and I applaud to it.
Our goals are the same, we just dont view the environment the same way.

I am presently project manager for a very interesting environmental project for the protection and restoration of 5 lakes and their watersheds. I am also doing work for the protection of wetlands and consider myself a dedicated conservationist. I am also a fisherman, a hunter and altough I dont do it anymore, I still have my permit as a traper. I dont see any contradictions between being a part of nature and helping to protect it.

But we can never get our positions closer Aquaman, not on internet that's for sure. We dont see nature the same way. We have our own sources of information and our own backgrounds and life paths. I can see you are doing it for the good purpose though and I respect that. Let's just say we are paddling down the same river, but we are on oposite riversides... and there's no bridge in sight...

 

[aquaman_06]

I have to agree wardric and if I were to meet you in person we would likely end up getting along well. As for Fisher's post it is clear you have far more education on ecology and these principles then I so I won't comment. I can say that invasive species in MD have been a large problem. This occurred when a snake head was released into a small lake in Silver Spring, MD.

 

[Ann Marie]

I will not talk about religion here since it's against the TOS but feel free to come discuss it in "the Pub", It is allowed there and I'll be glad to exchange with you on the subject.

Religion is not against the Terms of Service, only politics. Politics is now allowed in the Pub.

 

[Aquatic Eagle]

You are lumping too many things in one sentence. Slaughter houses usually humanely destroy animals.

I'll never agree that boiling chickens alive, force-feeding animals with pipes down their throats or making animals live in spaces only inches bigger than themselves for their entire lives is humane.