The Buddy system and separation problems

[Paulb2]

Hi Ber Rabbit

No need for apologies here . Nice to hear from you.

So would it be correct to say that divers sometimes generate their own hand signals (beyond the standard ones taught on OW courses) to meet the requirements of a situation?

Paul

 

[Ber Rabbit]

You got it! Bet you can't show me a class or a manual that has a hand signal for "this s**ks" but my buddy and I now have one!

When my buddy brings his camera I usually play the role of model and he comes up with spontaneous hand signals to direct me into the location/pose he wants.

Ber

 

[Paulb2]

Hi

Does anyone have a good understanding of the advantages and disadvantages for diving in a threesome :band: that they make explicit to a novice?


Thanks

Paul
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Learning all the time
:band2:

 

[devilfish]

As we can see from this post there are enough problems with a twosome buddy system. With three divers, if I am watching you and you are watching him, who is watching me? Each diver in a threesome has two divers to watch. That takes much more planning and much more global awareness. In case of emergency which buddy responds? A bit of confusion can cost precious seconds and making the situation worst. That does not say that three good divers can not dive a threesome.

 

[budgy]

I have dived threesomes, and it takes some getting used to particularly in low viz, on a number of occasions I ended up separated. With three reasonably experienced divers I think it best to make the weakest diver the centre. I have dived with two novices a few times and had some minor difficulties, I realise when things go wrong, two novice divers can be more than you can manage.www.divernet.com/news/items/scot220701.htm

 

[WetDane]

Hey Paul,

I tend to agree hat there are new things to keep in mind when diving threesomes - you are no longer a buddy team but just a three (wo)man team - this is manageable - but it is best done with experienced divers who clearly understand the team approach and clearing a plan prior to diving is even more important than other times...

You can to some extent consider diving a team thing like a military unit - not sure if you have had exposure to SF operations methodoloogies at all - but basically - most things are done by buddy teams, buddy teams at paired to created more powerful small groups...
Divign goes the same way - most team diving is done in assigned individual buddy teams to you know where to run if things go wrong.

If we dove a threesome, we ALWAYS dive side by side, with the most powerful lights on the outside - that way way the center person has a good reference - and mind you - the people I dive with rarely venture more than a couple of feet from a buddy - tapping fins is a good way to know that you are close - not an annoying thing - well, at least not all the time...

Anyway - I think I just composed a saga -
Cheers,

Big T

 

[Paulb2]

Hi everyone

A few thoughts,

I understand that it is commonly accepted that the buddy system should, in theory, be the safest way to participate in scuba diving. However for many of the reasons already highlighted in previous messages (separation, mental focus, individual competence, attitude etc) this isn’t often a reality.

Is this why solo diving is becoming more accepted? The self-sufficiency of solo diving eliminates the many unknown factors of an unfamiliar buddy?

The new dive courses show that there must be a growing need for solo training. I wonder if this is because people are losing faith in the buddy system. If this is the case, what about a revision of basic open water courses to help teach safer buddy diving.
Have you heard anything that might suggest that this may happen?


Paul
:doctor:
Learning all the time

 

[WetDane]

I think the revision of the basic OW training is a long time desire of many - however - that would not allow shops to process students at the current rate = not as much $$$

Is there a need for solo diving? NO

Why is solo diving becoming more accepted? Frankly - in my mind - becasue there are a lot of people out there who are more than willing to receive the darwin award.

If the buddy system fails - it is due to human error - I suggest that one dives with qualified people and things should be fine - if your buddies are not qualified, then suggest they further their trianing to a point where they are - If they do not feel the need for more training - find new dive buddies...

The introduction of the solo diver courses is a mystery to me - well - actually - can you spell D-O-L-L-A-R-S???

Big T

 

[metridium]

Originally posted by WetDane
Is there a need for solo diving? NO

Why is solo diving becoming more accepted? Frankly - in my mind - becasue there are a lot of people out there who are more than willing to receive the darwin award.

If the buddy system fails - it is due to human error - I suggest that one dives with qualified people and things should be fine - if your buddies are not qualified, then suggest they further their trianing to a point where they are - If they do not feel the need for more training - find new dive buddies...

With respect, WetDane, not all of us are gifted with DIR-trained buddies. Some of us go on liveaboard trips where we are forced to either dive with an ad-hoc buddy, SOB with a photographer, or dive solo. And some of us, like myself, have been paired with buddies who proved a greater danger to ourselves than if we'd done the dive solo.

BTW, I certainly wouldn't go solo or with an idiot buddy on a deep, current-filled, or overhead dive. A shallow reef dive with good vis and no current? I've done it on a liveaboard, and will do it again, if my only choices are solo (with redundancy), diving with
an incompetent buddy, or not diving at all.

Disclaimer: Dive solo at your own risk. I'm not advocating that anyone do so; this is merely a recap of my experience and observations.

 

[Paulb2]

Disclaimer: I have no experience or training in solo diving. In no way am I saying that solo diving is a safe practice. These views are my own and personal interpretation of my own knowledge. There intention is only to stimulate discussion. Solo diving requires special training, equipment and experience!
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Hi

This raises an interesting questions – Is a bad quality buddy better than no buddy?

A bad buddy may cause an accident and put his/her buddy’s life at risk. On top of this couldn’t there be legal implications for either buddy if a serious accident occurred? When you enter the water with a buddy aren’t you essentially making a commitment – ‘No matter what happens I will be your Guardian Angel’? Could solo diving actually be safer?
On the other hand there are the theoretical benefits of having a buddy as taught on OW causes, which could save your life. A buddy could also be psychologically comforting (apparently panic is one of the main triggers/causes of diving accidents)

So why is solo diving becoming more accepted? Well after some of the articles I have read it would appear that there is possibly a lack of trust and faith in the benefits of the buddy system, and some divers believe their lives should be placed in their own hands and not in the hands of a buddy. This is a quote from Glen Fitzler (Co-owner Truth Aquatics): -

“I’m not saying that every diver immediately drops his buddy and goes diving alone, however, it’s time that all instructional agencies stop giving divers the false sense of security that their buddy will be there to save them.”

Sure there is money to be made through solo courses but isn’t that because divers are willing to pay?

Thanks

Paul
:doctor:
Learning all the time