That pesky Medical Statement

[BRT]

Simple answer is the dive pro had to at one point fill out the same medical form for courses he/she took, even if just the OW course. So the pro would have to be medically fit according to the shop and agency (and have gotten a Dr.'s signed approval if there was a YES answer). No detailed medical info. would need to be released to anyone.

Yeah, I had one of those for open water too so there should be no need to fill one out for our next dive trip.

 

[Blue Quaker]

Get on a dive boat in Cozumel and look at the customers. Pull in to Sund Rock on a Saturday and look at the divers. Try to guess how many of them do not have some condition that would create a question of whether they should be diving. We are a bunch of geezers and we are all paying the medical industry to keep us going. Sure there are a few exceptions, but they are a minority. Many if not most did not start diving until they were over 40. I was young when I started, only 30. We want to do what we want to do and we know there are risks. Staying in bed or taking up golf is not going to keep us alive.

I get what you say....I have had a student who signed up for an advanced course (passed medical) who stated proudly that he was 67 inches tall and 72 inches round and weighed 328lbs (early thirties). He had been using 64lb of lead on his weight belt till we met up with him. He was a proficient diver on the course and we got him down to 48lb on his belt...But he looked like a coronary waiting to happen when he geared up and got ready to dive.

 

[KeithG]

Okay, you feel that way. Fine.

If you die while training do to a medical condition that should have kept you out of the water, will your surviving family members feel that way? Or might they argue in the lawsuit that the instructor should have known you were not fit to dive?

yes. that is the cultural issue i brought up. in my culture i would simply be labelled as "stupid old fart" who did something stupid. life would go on. no lawsuit required.

 

[KeithG]

Ah, I misunderstood your post--I thought you were opposed to ALL medical statements.

I am.

And I love the frogkick waiver as it does not contain any questions of any sort. it simply asks me to confirm that I am responsible. It is very similar in nature to the waiver I have to sign to dive in Bonaire.

 

[drrich2]

We want to do what we want to do and we know there are risks. Staying in bed or taking up golf is not going to keep us alive.

That level of liberty is something modern society cannot handle accepting in others, even when it's common practice. How many mentions of a Physician evaluating a prospective diver read like the Physician will decide whether to 'veto' diving for him? How often instead do we read 'My Doctor recommended against it and explained the risks to me, but that's my decision and I'm diving' or similar?

After all, would your Physician 'clear' you to smoke, maintain an obese state, drink alcohol, eat greasy fried food...? One argument levied against the 'It's my right' mindset is that exercising your self-perceived right could impact others (e.g.: dive guide rescue effort, cancel others trip short). Yes. So can having a heart attack or stroke driving down the highway.

It becomes a question of degree. I think most of us would balk at an epileptic who still has periodic seizures driving, especially on busy highways at high speed. But the 350 lb. guy with the history of 2 heart attacks and a triple bypass pulling out of McDonalds? Who says anything about that?

Richard.

 

[KeithG]

A legal issue that the RSTC medical form may ...
I suspect that the same could be argued in the case of someone who signs a simple statement saying they have no medical issues; how do you know you have no medical issues if you do not know what those issues are?

And this may be one of those cultural things?

I am perfectly happy (actually I appreciate the nudge) when someone reminds that life can be dangerous. So they are free to ask "you do understand that you may have some kind of medical condition that may cause you to die in the very near future?". I see no value in asking a question that forces me to claim I have no medical conditions. Very different questions.

Actually I do not think this is solely cultural. It seems myopic on the part of the scuba industry. How many other activities do this? It would be interesting to see if there are any comparable examples out there.

 

[KeithG]

...After all, would your Physician 'clear' you to smoke, maintain an obese state, drink alcohol, eat greasy fried food...? One argument levied against the 'It's my right' mindset is that exercising your self-perceived right could impact others (e.g.: dive guide rescue effort, cancel others trip short). Yes. So can having a heart attack or stroke driving down the highway....

Agreed - can you think of any other activity that requires this?

Just about everything we do can have effects on other people. I think most people understand this. Hiking up a mountain in Antarctica, wilderness canoeing in the Northwest Territories, participating in a car race. These are all potentially dangerous. None require a doctor to sign off...

Why does the scuba industry think they need to?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Agreed - can you think of any other activity that requires this?

Just about everything we do can have effects on other people. I think most people understand this. Hiking up a mountain in Antarctica, wilderness canoeing in the Northwest Territories, participating in a car race. These are all potentially dangerous. None require a doctor to sign off...

Why does the scuba industry think they need to?

If you hire a guide to take you out in the wilderness, they might reasonably ask for a doctor's medical waiver. I'm pretty sure my buddy who races cars had to get a medical.

 

[dmaziuk]

A legal issue that the RSTC medical form may be dealing with is the idea of informed consent. I investigated the case of a dive fatality in which the expert witness hired by the plaintiff, a person who serves as an expert witness in a lot of scuba-related lawsuits, argued that the liability waiver the deceased had signed had no value. He said people routinely sign them without reading them or (if they do) understanding them. Unless the instructor could prove that he had gone over each item, explained it in detail, etc., it was not valid. IN fact, he said it would not be valid of the deceased had not consulted with an attorney before signing it.

As an instructor, I have read a number of warnings stating that I should go over every clause in a liability waiver before the student signs.

I suspect that the same could be argued in the case of someone who signs a simple statement saying they have no medical issues; how do you know you have no medical issues if you do not know what those issues are?

And that's different in the case of those yes/no questions? Our Chariman is no medical doctor and would not presume to know what level of cholesterol is "too high" to dive. Well, I'm no medical doctor either and I don't have even one tenth of his diving experience. And according to those Krueger an Dunning guys, my idea of my fitness to dive is likely to be way out of whack with objective reality. So I have a better chance of answering the question correctly?

 

[dmaziuk]

If you hire a guide to take you out in the wilderness, they might reasonably ask for a doctor's medical waiver. I'm pretty sure my buddy who races cars had to get a medical.

Fine, ask everyone for the doctor's note. Don't ask stupid questions.