That pesky Medical Statement

[redacted]

I wonder what happens to your deposit if a diver is rejected by the dive op. What happens to others in that divers party and their paid fees?

 

[dmaziuk]

I wonder what happens to your deposit if a diver is rejected by the dive op. What happens to others in that divers party and their paid fees?

If the trip is long enough they need at least n+1 divers to pay for the gas and you were the +1. I expect they get n happy customers and great reviews on tripelocity.

A couple of posts reference not being aware that there'd be a med form. I've also seen this at my LDS, where someone will come in to book a class or get on a group dive, be asked to fill out the waiver, and then get mad or surprised at the need to.

There is a difference between booking a class at an LDS, and booking a week at distant resort where there's nothing else to do but dive, buying non-refundable airplane tickets, clearing vacation time with your HR, and then being told "be honest, tell us you gramma died of stroke". Yeah right.

 

[Kevo88]

If the trip is long enough they need at least n+1 divers to pay for the gas and you were the +1. I expect they get n happy customers and great reviews on tripelocity.



There is a difference between booking a class at an LDS, and booking a week at distant resort where there's nothing else to do but dive, buying non-refundable airplane tickets, clearing vacation time with your HR, and then being told "be honest, tell us you gramma died of stroke". Yeah right.

That makes sense. I haven't done any travel diving yet, so I luckily haven't been in that position.

 

[tursiops]

Why were you completing a medical release form on the Fling. We're you planning on taking training?.

No.

 

[The Chairman]

Wow... this is a really great thread! Thanks for Christi for accidentally creating it!

We always give our students all the paperwork ahead of time and we encourage them to fill it out and send it to us well in advance of any classes. To date, I've only had one person actually follow through with that timeline. They had a medical condition and sent the Doctor's release at the same time. I had one student who brought his form to me with a concern. They were livid when I asked them to get a doctor's clearance (nearest quickie place is in Miami). Why didn't I tell him ahead of time? Because if I did, then I am encouraging my student to lie so they can get away with being lazy. I simply need to know what ails you and here's some points you may or may not agree with:

• You can't un-ring a bell.
  • Once I know, I will always know.
  • So no, you can't fill out a new form so you can lie to me.
• Our relationship needs to be built on trust.
  • Lying to me, even on a medical release, violates that trust!
  • You're putting me in legal jeopardy without my consent.
  • You're laziness is no excuse.
  • Once lost, it's really difficult to rebuild trust.
  • If I can't trust you, I won't teach you.
• Medical releases are tools to assist me and you.
  • What you don't know may injure or kill you.
  • I know many of the conditions that preclude you from diving that you probably don't.
  • Diving is optional: living is not!
  • I can't advise you if you hide it from me!
  • I can't help you to figure out how to adapt your diving if you hide conditions from me.
• The more I know about you, the better I can assist you.
  • An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
  • Forewarned is fore armed.
• In case of an accident, you want the attending doctors to know what we know.
  • Lies only confuse an already chaotic situation.
  • Doctors are less likely to listen to someone who does not know everything about you.
  • Please don't make me look like an idiot. I can do that all by myself.

 

[JohnN]

Wow... this is a really great thread! Thanks for Christi for accidentally creating it!

We always give our students all the paperwork ahead of time and we encourage them to fill it out and send it to us well in advance of any classes. To date, I've only had one person actually follow through with that timeline. They had a medical condition and sent the Doctor's release at the same time. I had one student who brought his form to me with a concern. They were livid when I asked them to get a doctor's clearance (nearest quickie place is in Miami). Why didn't I tell him ahead of time? Because if I did, then I am encouraging my student to lie so they can get away with being lazy. I simply need to know what ails you and here's some points you may or may not agree with:

• You can't un-ring a bell.
  • Once I know, I will always know.
  • So no, you can't fill out a new form so you can lie to me.
• Our relationship needs to be built on trust.
  • Lying to me, even on a medical release, violates that trust!
  • You're putting me in legal jeopardy without my consent.
  • You're laziness is no excuse.
  • Once lost, it's really difficult to rebuild trust.
  • If I can't trust you, I won't teach you.
• Medical releases are tools to assist me and you.
  • What you don't know may injure or kill you.
  • I know many of the conditions that preclude you from diving that you probably don't.
  • Diving is optional: living is not!
  • I can't advise you if you hide it from me!
  • I can't help you to figure out how to adapt your diving if you hide conditions from me.
• The more I know about you, the better I can assist you.
  • An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
  • Forewarned is fore armed.
• In case of an accident, you want the attending doctors to know what we know.
  • Lies only confuse an already chaotic situation.
  • Doctors are less likely to listen to someone who does not know everything about you.
  • Please don't make me look like an idiot. I can do that all by myself.

Are we talking about the PADI medical release? If so I would assert that it is hopelessly broad and answering completely and truthfully serves neither the student, instructor or doctor (who most likely knows squat about diving)

 

[rmssetc]

SNIP!

Wow... this is a really great thread! Thanks for Christi for accidentally creating it!
I simply need to know what ails you and here's some points you may or may not agree with:

• Medical releases are tools to assist me and you
• The more I know about you, the better I can assist you.
• In case of an accident, you want the attending doctors to know what we know.

Good points. You stress trust, which is a great way to set a good relationship between divers, whether trainee/instructor or buddies. Those are somewhat different relationships than between a dive op & customers, even an op that provides a DM (required, as in CZM, or as a value-add service).

Here's something to consider...what about the other side of this two-way street? What do you think of providing students with similar information (medical release data) for you and each of the other divers in a class? In the scenario where you are incapacitated, those other divers would want the same data, for the exact same reasons you cite above.

There are obviously tremendous issues of trust here, as well as questions about the hierarchical relationships (trainee->instructor is much more clear than the relationship between a paying customer and a dive op that's not providing supervisory or instructional services in the water).

There are tremendous practical issues in keeping that information both secure & available.

In fact, I trust any dive op or instructor's ability to securely maintain my medical data much, much less than I trust them in the water or trust them to act correctly on the basis of that medical data in the event of an emergency. That would be my primary motivation in refusing to submit a medical form and doctor's release.

I sent my medical data to Elena as an encrypted file; I have no idea whether she printed that out, unencrypted it and kept the data locally, securely destroyed it one year after we dove together, etc.

 

[cipherbreak]

Are we talking about the PADI medical release? If so I would assert that it is hopelessly broad and answering completely and truthfully serves neither the student, instructor or doctor (who most likely knows squat about diving)

As previously discussed, the form is purposely broad. It can cover almost anything that could possibly--and even stuff that could impossibly--lead to problems while diving. If the diver lies, the liability is with him. It the diver doesn't, the liability is with the doctor. If the diver is honest but then decides to change the form, the liability is with the shop. They are now aware that the diver is being coerced into lying by the circumstances. Most dive ops will not allow that. In any case, the form exists to protect the dive profession in a lawsuit-friendly society.

Everyone has their own personal standards but the legal standard is demonstrating due care and diligence. I believe that can be achieved by a simple "I have no known medical conditions that should preclude me from diving unless stated above", as Christi does. It's the equivalent of "Danger: The contents in this cup of hot coffee are hot." It also keeps the dive operators clear of PHI concerns.

But some dive operators may elect to ensure the diver is aware of what conditions dive medics believe are significant, for the benefit of everyone involved. Dive deaths are bad for business and take an emotional toll on everyone. That is a risk-benefit analysis. More questions equals more room for the disclosure of information that may or may not be relevant, but dive pros are not in the position to make that determination. It will require the review of a medical professional and lead to the potential loss of a customer.

Risk averse dive shops will go with a form similar to RSTC. More risk neutral ops will be satisfied with meeting the legal standard. All dive ops will go with RSTC's form during training, as it is a requirement.

 

[uncfnp]

Wow... this is a really great thread! Thanks for Christi for accidentally creating it!

We always give our students all the paperwork ahead of time and we encourage them to fill it out and send it to us well in advance of any classes. To date, I've only had one person actually follow through with that timeline. They had a medical condition and sent the Doctor's release at the same time. I had one student who brought his form to me with a concern. They were livid when I asked them to get a doctor's clearance (nearest quickie place is in Miami). Why didn't I tell him ahead of time? Because if I did, then I am encouraging my student to lie so they can get away with being lazy. I simply need to know what ails you and here's some points you may or may not agree with:

• You can't un-ring a bell.
  • Once I know, I will always know.
  • So no, you can't fill out a new form so you can lie to me.
• Our relationship needs to be built on trust.
  • Lying to me, even on a medical release, violates that trust!
  • You're putting me in legal jeopardy without my consent.
  • You're laziness is no excuse.
  • Once lost, it's really difficult to rebuild trust.
  • If I can't trust you, I won't teach you.
• Medical releases are tools to assist me and you.
  • What you don't know may injure or kill you.
  • I know many of the conditions that preclude you from diving that you probably don't.
  • Diving is optional: living is not!
  • I can't advise you if you hide it from me!
  • I can't help you to figure out how to adapt your diving if you hide conditions from me.
• The more I know about you, the better I can assist you.
  • An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!
  • Forewarned is fore armed.
• In case of an accident, you want the attending doctors to know what we know.
  • Lies only confuse an already chaotic situation.
  • Doctors are less likely to listen to someone who does not know everything about you.
  • Please don't make me look like an idiot. I can do that all by myself.

But Pete. As I understand the requirements, divers are not required to give you the questionnaire if there are any yes answers, just the release which has no specific medical information. If this is the case then it serves no useful purpose except as a liability release or a screening tool for new divers.

 

[The Chairman]

Are we talking about the PADI medical release?

I'm not a (gasp) PADI instructor. I am referring to them in general.

What do you think of providing students with similar information (medical release data) for you and each of the other divers in a class?

They've never asked and have no legal obligation to do so. I could not share the information with anyone but the Dive Op and/or the agency I'm teaching for. However, I only teach small classes and if you're in the same class it means you're bosom buddies or family.

But Pete. As I understand the requirements, divers are not required to give you the questionnaire if there are any yes answers, just the release which has no specific medical information.

I understand the requirements a lot differently. No questionnaire means there's no class.