That pesky Medical Statement

[TMHeimer]

I think the issue with what CipherBreak is describing has this dynamic:

1.) The customer has the option to conceal medical history & only check 'no' on the form. This is seen as protecting the dive op. from liability should something bad happen without a doctor's statement.

2.) The customer instead make a choice to disclose this info., shifting the liability burden onto the dive op., which caught between a rock (shouldering that liability) and a hard place (ticking off a customer, losing business), will not tolerate that liability and instead demands it be shifted to some Physician (or maybe Nurse Practioner?), a process that's time consuming, inconvenient and if one doesn't have a current Physician willing to do it, and reachable at the time, may border on impossible. And the Physician may refuse to take the liability onto himself.

3.) The customer who put the dive op. in this position then proceeds to try to cajole, push and in some cases maybe even get belligerent in begging/requesting/demanding the dive op. write the issue off as insignificant and take them diving without the medical release.

From some dive op.'s perspectives, I suppose it could be interpreted like 'Look, buddy, you can either screw yourself over by checking 'Yes' after you showed up without a medical release in hand, or you can check all 'No,' but if you do the former, don't expect us to stick our neck out to take you diving.

Yes Richard. That's the complete picture. Thank you. You've probably explained all the angles before, but I appreciate it.

 

[drrich2]

4.) The customer can't put his/her ethics aside and answers honestly.

You are the professional, right? They are clueless, right? You need to communicate.

A good point, but how practical is it in the real world? People are inundated with information these days and screen most of it out (a defense mechanism against data paralysis I suspect). So what do you do? Put something graphic sounding & threatening on your website's main page? Show up without a medical release & check 'Yes' on anything and we'll ban you from diving till you somehow get a release? Who's going to book with them when their competitors' sites look warmer, more friendly & welcoming? But no, book with us...we're so strict the lawyers wish we'd take a chill pill!

Can we see an example of any known dive op. who's business is tourist diver boat trips who has a website that so powerfully drives home this issue yet so encourages total disclosure on all forms such that hardly any customers ever check 'no' unless that's clearly accurate?

Richard.

 

[drrich2]

Let's make it practical. Go to BlueXTSeaDiving.com (since Christy started this thread, I think that's a good start) and pretend you're a fairly new diver (e.g.: < 50 dives, OW and maybe AOW cert.s) and you're looking to book a dive trip to Cozumel. You heard good word-of-mouth about this op., or Google took you to it. But somehow you don't know about this medical release issue, and you've got something - moderate hypertension controlled with medication, gout, etc...

Imagine you like what you see and decide to book with them. Look over the website, pull up the policies & FAQ...and tell us how far into the process you get before you find a glaring warning about what'll happen if you show up & check 'Yes' without a medical release in hand.

Is this something you ran across on the site? Where? Was it obvious/blatant? Would the overwhelming majority of divers have noticed it? How likely is it someone might book, and buy airfare and make hotel reservations for the trip plus put in for time off from work, before ultimately finding out about all this?

Is it reasonably foreseeable a significant % of such customers may show up at the dive shop without knowing this till they get handed a release form to fill out? If BlueXTSea pushes for these forms to be filled out and e-mailed or faxed in, at what point in the process does that happen?

Richard.

 

[lowviz]

Richard,

I've followed your posts for many years. IMO, you tend to be a centrist. However, you also provoke discussion from both sides. Maybe just being good at your profession. IDK.

This entire thread is done in a mandatory sotto voce. It really is all about lawyers and how they pervert divers/instructors to adjust to them, no? Strikes a nerve with me.

I dive local and solo. I miss out on a lot of the fancy pink fish and blue water that way, but in the end, I'm very much ahead. When I die, nobody gets sued.

 

[cipherbreak]

No, if you don't fit into one of several categories you don't have to comply with HIPAA. It only applies to "covered entities".

I wonder if dive ops could be considered a hybrid entity under the HIPAA HITECH privacy rule, as one of the benefits of diving with a center is access to personnel trained in rescue, first aid, and emergency management, so it could be argued customers have a reasonable expectation for medical care, however basic it may be.

 

[tursiops]

Let's make it practical. Go to BlueXTSeaDiving.com (since Christy started this thread, I think that's a good start) and pretend you're a fairly new diver (e.g.: < 50 dives, OW and maybe AOW cert.s) and you're looking to book a dive trip to Cozumel. You heard good word-of-mouth about this op., or Google took you to it. But somehow you don't know about this medical release issue, and you've got something - moderate hypertension controlled with medication, gout, etc...

Imagine you like what you see and decide to book with them. Look over the website, pull up the policies & FAQ...and tell us how far into the process you get before you find a glaring warning about what'll happen if you show up & check 'Yes' without a medical release in hand.

Is this something you ran across on the site? Where? Was it obvious/blatant? Would the overwhelming majority of divers have noticed it? How likely is it someone might book, and buy airfare and make hotel reservations for the trip plus put in for time off from work, before ultimately finding out about all this?

Is it reasonably foreseeable a significant % of such customers may show up at the dive shop without knowing this till they get handed a release form to fill out? If BlueXTSea pushes for these forms to be filled out and e-mailed or faxed in, at what point in the process does that happen?

Richard.

Not a bad hypothetical. Here's a real: I was booked on the Fling to Flower Gardens, due to fly out on a Friday morning to Texas. Thursday afternoon I get an email that says (paraphrased) "don't forget to bring your signed medical if you have any YES answers." I cancelled. I do have YES answers, but I have no problem getting a signature, except at the last minute. I now carry a signed medical as part of my travel kit.

By the way, no operator can demand you fill out the questionnaire, they can only demand you provide the doctor's signature.

 

[Kevo88]

Please pardon my ignorance on the subject, but is the medical waiver/Dr signature something that's relatively new to recreational diving? I'm a greenhorn in this hobby, so I guess I just assumed it was a normal, long standing practice. I had to fill in the form for my DSD in Cozumel and OW training locally (both PADI ops). My LDS even signed me up for DAN student insurance in case of an accident during training.

 

[tursiops]

Please pardon my ignorance on the subject, but is the medical waiver/Dr signature something that's relatively new to recreational diving? I'm a greenhorn in this hobby, so I guess I just assumed it was a normal, long standing practice. I had to fill in the form for my DSD in Cozumel and OW training locally (both PADI ops). My LDS even signed me up for DAN student insurance in case of an accident during training.

No, it is not new. Why do you ask?

 

[redacted]

Not a bad hypothetical. Here's a real: I was booked on the Fling to Flower Gardens, due to fly out on a Friday morning to Texas. Thursday afternoon I get an email that says (paraphrased) "don't forget to bring your signed medical if you have any YES answers." I cancelled. I do have YES answers, but I have no problem getting a signature, except at the last minute. I now carry a signed medical as part of my travel kit.

By the way, no operator can demand you fill out the questionnaire, they can only demand you provide the doctor's signature.

Why were you completing a medical release form on the Fling. We're you planning on taking training?

I no longer go out on the Fling and have not for about 4 years but this is a requirement I do not recall.

 

[Kevo88]

No, it is not new. Why do you ask?

Just curious more than anything. A couple of posts reference not being aware that there'd be a med form. I've also seen this at my LDS, where someone will come in to book a class or get on a group dive, be asked to fill out the waiver, and then get mad or surprised at the need to.