Texas Parks & Wildlife Public Reefing meeting.

[Shaft]

What on earth are you talkin' about? Divide and conquer? What? This is a generic public preliminary input and informational meeting, not a public support rally. The two are radically different.

As I know firsthand how bloody hard it is to get private citizens to ever go to these things, I am wondering if any of you guys have a clear idea about how these meetings work. Think of it more like an extraordinarily lightweight brainstorming seminar, led by a small group of cautious but polite government officials that will supply limited amounts of information. That's it. Think PTA meeting.

Amen! With all of the crying and moaning that goes on on this board, I would be very suprised if a hand full of people show up.

 

[Lukiedukie]

Shaft will you be there? I am pretty sure if I can get it off from work I will be there. Then again I am looking at a 5 hour drive and all we do is cry an moan. How about you will we see you at the meeting or are you just trolling?

Or how about a little introduction as you seem to be up on TPWD news?

 

[ZzzKing]

What on earth are you talkin' about? Divide and conquer? What? This is a generic public preliminary input and informational meeting, not a public support rally. The two are radically different.

As I know firsthand how bloody hard it is to get private citizens to ever go to these things, I am wondering if any of you guys have a clear idea about how these meetings work. Think of it more like an extraordinarily lightweight brainstorming seminar, led by a small group of cautious but polite government officials that will supply limited amounts of information. That's it. Think PTA meeting.

I work for a public agency and I can say that:

1. Extensive work with insiders has probably already occurred and they probably already have a good idea what their ultimate proposal will be.

and

2. If you show up, disagree with the ultimate proposal and are very vocal about it and show that you are well connected and in for the long haul, you can alter the outcome to be much more in your favor.

This is pretty much regardless of what the proposal is and precisely because of the lack of public participation mentioned above. All the best luck in trying to keep Texas' public amenities within the public realm!

 

[ReefHound]

What on earth are you talkin' about? Divide and conquer? What? This is a generic public preliminary input and informational meeting, not a public support rally. The two are radically different.

As I know firsthand how bloody hard it is to get private citizens to ever go to these things, I am wondering if any of you guys have a clear idea about how these meetings work. Think of it more like an extraordinarily lightweight brainstorming seminar, led by a small group of cautious but polite government officials that will supply limited amounts of information. That's it. Think PTA meeting.

Yep, there's always the guy in the back who has a list of reasons why something can't work. We have no delusions as to what these meetings represent. These meetings are a miniscule part of our plans. Wait, watch, listen.

 

[archman]

I work for a public agency and I can say that:

Well, I train the high school and college students that grow up and become the very people that make these natural resource decisions. I'm giving 4-8 coastal resource workshops this summer, actually. You're getting a little over-paranoid against environmental managers, ZKing. They tend to be about as duplicitous as a priest... well maybe not THAT nice. But if they WERE shady operators, they'd take up a higher paying job with less grief and much less real work.

1. Extensive work with insiders has probably already occurred and they probably already have a good idea what their ultimate proposal will be.

Insiders, not really. Unless you count the state biologists and resource managers themselves, which are doing their job. Big business and Big government don't really have much interest getting involved in small potato stuff like this. But yes, a public Q&A meeting is little more than a formality. All the major decisions have already been made by the professionals paid to do their normal duties. The general function of a public meeting is to field questions by stakeholders and alleviate concerns. Most of what these things do is clarify and correct misinformation coming from third parties.

2. If you show up, disagree with the ultimate proposal and are very vocal about it and show that you are well connected and in for the long haul, you can alter the outcome to be much more in your favor.

This is true, but rarely occurs. Usually when it DOES occur, it's because the topic is contentious. In that case, you get a high attendance. That's what happened when the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary public meetings were held in the 1980's. The people of Monroe county had many concerns, and showed up in force.

Personally, I know of no particularly contentious issues regarding the Texas artificial reef program. Therefore, I expect a low public turnout.

This is pretty much regardless of what the proposal is and precisely because of the lack of public participation mentioned above.

No, if you get a hot-button topic, you usually get a high turnout. Sometimes a local or state representative can even be induced to attend.

You don't see a lot of hot-button issues in natural resource policy, especially in Texas. Most of our regulations and management decisions need a pretty hefty approval rating from the politicians before they can even get past the initial planning stages. Fruity stuff hardly ever gets the go-ahead. Our coastal policies are highly conservative.

All the best luck in trying to keep Texas' public amenities within the public realm!

Is there something you know about the Texas reef program that you'd wish to share with us? If something sneaky IS underfoot, let us know. In that case, people WILL pack the meeting room and throw a wrench in the works.:14:

 

[archman]

Yep, there's always the guy in the back who has a list of reasons why something can't work. We have no delusions as to what these meetings represent. These meetings are a miniscule part of our plans. Wait, watch, listen.

Uh, why WHAT won't work? What "delusions" are the public seeing through?

Provide specifics as they relate to the Texas Artificial Reef Program, please.

 

[ReefHound]

Uh, why WHAT won't work? What "delusions" are the public seeing through?

Provide specifics as they relate to the Texas Artificial Reef Program, please.

Read closer, I said there are NO delusions. These meetings are just political cover to do what they already want to do, but we know that.

I'm not yet sure which side you're on you're already taking potshots and sayings things like we don't know how these meetings work.

 

[Shaft]

Shaft will you be there? I am pretty sure if I can get it off from work I will be there. Then again I am looking at a 5 hour drive and all we do is cry an moan. How about you will we see you at the meeting or are you just trolling?

Or how about a little introduction as you seem to be up on TPWD news?

No, I will not be there, and no I am not trolling. I just get irritated reading posts from people who think they know everything there is to be known about artificial reefs because they have read about it on the internet. I believe in letting the professionals do their jobs. If I were to take the time and go back to school and get a degree in resource management, then I might feel qualified to comment on the subject. I am an engineer, I will stick to building buildings.

Take the meetings for what they are, an opportunity (actually a courtesy) for TPDW to inform the public of their plans/goals.

 

[ZzzKing]

Well, I train the high school and college students that grow up and become the very people that make these natural resource decisions. I'm giving 4-8 coastal resource workshops this summer, actually. You're getting a little over-paranoid against environmental managers, ZKing. They tend to be about as duplicitous as a priest... well maybe not THAT nice. But if they WERE shady operators, they'd take up a higher paying job with less grief and much less real work.


Insiders, not really. Unless you count the state biologists and resource managers themselves, which are doing their job. Big business and Big government don't really have much interest getting involved in small potato stuff like this. But yes, a public Q&A meeting is little more than a formality. All the major decisions have already been made by the professionals paid to do their normal duties. The general function of a public meeting is to field questions by stakeholders and alleviate concerns. Most of what these things do is clarify and correct misinformation coming from third parties.


This is true, but rarely occurs. Usually when it DOES occur, it's because the topic is contentious. In that case, you get a high attendance. That's what happened when the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary public meetings were held in the 1980's. The people of Monroe county had many concerns, and showed up in force.

Personally, I know of no particularly contentious issues regarding the Texas artificial reef program. Therefore, I expect a low public turnout.

No, if you get a hot-button topic, you usually get a high turnout. Sometimes a local or state representative can even be induced to attend.

You don't see a lot of hot-button issues in natural resource policy, especially in Texas. Most of our regulations and management decisions need a pretty hefty approval rating from the politicians before they can even get past the initial planning stages. Fruity stuff hardly ever gets the go-ahead. Our coastal policies are highly conservative.

Is there something you know about the Texas reef program that you'd wish to share with us? If something sneaky IS underfoot, let us know. In that case, people WILL pack the meeting room and throw a wrench in the works.:14:

I'm not aware of any controversy. I'm just saying that public agencies commonly complete their environmental impact studies, and other precursor projects to implementing programs with a specific direction in mind. The process is never completely subjective. It also can be heavily weighted toward one minor, but very vocal local special interest group. If there are no others at the hearing, or if no one else speaks up, the minority can have a major impact. This can be good and bad depending on the issue and the special interest group.

Also keep in mind that this is the same TPWD that stocked private lands with publicly funded deer and antelope a few years back. I just think it is a good idea to keep an eye on the folks spending the tax dollars.

If it were left purely up the engineers, I'm sure things would go pretty much as they should. Hopefully that will occur. I am just an advocate for the taxpayers reaping the benefit of public lands and publicly funded efforts.

Plus, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

 

[chairmanTARAC]

Please be advised the meeting juNE 6 Will be held at tpwd office 1502 FM517 east Dickenson. TPWD wants to change the way a reef can be created. The workshops are to get the public's input into establishing the public reefing program by placeing preapproved materials at permitted TPWD sites. The idea is to create A SERIES OF 160ACRE REEFS WITHIN STATE WATERS OUT OF EACH MAJOR PORT AREA SO THAT SMALL BOAT FISHERMAN AND DIVERS CAN GET TO THEM. Obviously, they will be geared more to fishing than diving. It is a way for the public to do some reefing at their own expense.The Artificial Reef Advisory Committee has had no input into this proposal. As chairman and Diving Industry Representative, I await your input