Technical diving and the new diver

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EXACTLY. That would be like trying to hide the fact that Olympic ski jumping exists from a 5 year old that is just learning to ski. Of course, it would be a bad idea to send that 5 year old over the Olympic level ski jump, but if they don't know it exists where would the drive be to reach that goal in the first place?

I am not seeing the issue here. In any sport there are more advanced levels of skills, and there is no harm in telling people about them, particularly if you warn them about what they don't know. I wouldn't have any issue with an instructor telling newbie parachuting students about the joys of freefall skydiving, even if it is a long road before they would ever be ready to do it. Is the suggestion that instructors should pretend that tec diving doesn't exist, or is some dark hidden secret of the diving community?
 
I think in a lot of places, it IS a dark hidden secret . . . I mean, I remember my OW training. I came away from it with the idea that most people dove shallower than 130 feet and didn't go into overhead environments, but there was a tiny and very far-off community of people who did those other weird things. We didn't talk at all about what you might want to do or how you might want to do it. It was "over there". It was not what WE did.

I really do prefer the approach that it's a continuum. People sometimes have a clear idea of what they want to do when they learn to dive -- one of my friends knew, from day one, that he wanted to do the big wrecks in Puget Sound, which are all technical, and deep technical at that. He planned a course and executed it, and does those dives. I had no idea what I wanted to do with diving, and the shop where I got certified is all about basic recreational diving at home and in the tropics. When I found out about cave diving, it made my jaw drop. I had to go completely elsewhere to figure out where and how.

I think people ought to know what the spectrum of possibilities in diving is. Then they can decide what inspires them.
 
I know that was a lot of questions, so to summarize - it seems to me that many introductory classes tend to focus on the rainbows and butterflies of diving, and while mention of the big bad wolf is made, we don't want to scare anybody. I'd like some opinions from both new divers, experienced divers, and instructors alike. At what point is it appropriate to introduce otherwise unknowing divers to the concepts, philosophy, and mechanisms of technical diving - and is it appropriate to continually focus on these points across a diver's education?

I teach "not running out of gas", "not kicking the crap out of everything", "not losing your buddy" and "what you can count on from the DM", but do not introduce any technical diving concepts in OW, except to clearly explain that they are not trained for overhead dives and that diving with a significant decompression obligation or in any sort of overhead environment means that even small mistakes can be dangerous or fatal.

Some of the concepts (as above) make a nice transition between technical and OW diving, however the big rush towards technical diving is a real shame on the industry.

flots.
 
Some very interesting and enlightening replies! I'm camped out with those who discovered tec diving relatively early, but having little to no exposure or guidance didn't pay much attention to it. When I started diving relatively shallow wrecks and finding a high level of comfort in bone chilling muck, my curiosity sparked and I began researching it. Shortly thereafter, I spent some time in the Northeast doing a few wrecks on Lake Erie and interacting with a few technical divers, and then the deal was pretty well sealed.

I think in a lot of places, it IS a dark hidden secret . . . I mean, I remember my OW training. I came away from it with the idea that most people dove shallower than 130 feet and didn't go into overhead environments, but there was a tiny and very far-off community of people who did those other weird things. We didn't talk at all about what you might want to do or how you might want to do it. It was "over there". It was not what WE did.

This is exactly the feeling I was given when I started diving, and part of what prompted me to ask. As a new diver, for me to ask the question of "what's tec diving?" would elicit responses from "Those guys are nuts!" to "Why would you want to dive in THAT?"

The addition to this is a perceived conflict of interest as a soon-to-be instructor. On one hand, we are encouraged to share our diving passions, experiences, and goals. In my case, I've taken a specific interest in the Empress of Ireland. While this is a looooong way down the road, it remains a key motivator of mine. On the other hand, we've been specifically told to avoid speaking of technical diving unless we're a technical instructor. This is further complicated by the fact that I can't bring myself to recommend the tec instructor our store has on staff, so any referrals would go to a competing location (however far away). As I've never been that crazy about reefs and sharks, this doesn't leave much for me to talk about without upping the BS factor.

Some of the concepts (as above) make a nice transition between technical and OW diving, however the big rush towards technical diving is a real shame on the industry.

Without opening a can of worms, would you mind elaborating on this? I understand that the cert mills have left a bad taste in our mouths, and equipment manufactures have responded with bells, whistles, and wireless everything *shivers*. But are you trying to say that the number of incoming divers is a bad thing, or simply the standard of training/education that often follows?
 
I'm one of those new divers. I was originally trained in Nj by a shop that caters to North East wreck diving. In class we weren't pushed towards tech it was always referred to as the dark side and somewhere some of us may go in the future if we chose. After getting certified and learning of all the wrecks of the Northeast and the history I got very interested.

I have now moved to Indiana due to family issues and needed to find people to dive with. Since I refused to stop diving when it got cold it seems like the majority of people I dive with are tech divers who dive to keep skills sharp. I find this extremely valuable. Not only do I learn from them by talking and observing but I also learn that I'm not ready yet for tech by talking and observing.

With that beig said though I am still plotting a course for tech. It's become less about when in time I will be ready and more about when in skill I will be ready. I have transitioned most of my gear over to tech flavor not because its cool but because most of the people I dive with have the same config and when you read the reasons why the gear is like that it just makes sense.

What I would like to see is a long term plan to tech.
For example. I have AOW/nitrox and drysuit.
What should I do next and when? Should it be a set number of dives or a professiency with certain skills before moving on?

its difficult for me in this I between time because I get mixed answers. Some say get doubles now and practice. Some say wait until trim and bouyancy are better. Some say take gue fundies or intro to tech others say wait.

It would be great to see a plan that says something like achieve profecciency in x then take this class, achieve proficiency in y the take this class. With an understanding that there will be a lot of diving in between.

i would equate it to college where you take foundations as prerequisites for the next classes etc and you have a clear 2-4yr plan ahead of you.

I would be much more patient if I could see a path.

Brandon,

The issue is there is no 'path'. Being one who has talked with you about your plan, I can say you want to move very fast. Most of the advice that has been given is more along the lines of 'scuba is a journey, not a destination.' In reference to gear, we've only pointed out that new gear is added before you are fully comfortable in the previously added piece. An example is you wish to jump immediately to doubles, but have less than 12 drysuit dives - and that's in two different suits (a neoprene Bare and a Fusion). In those 12 dives you've also swapped over to a BP/wing and 7' hose routing. All this while having just completed OW around 9 months ago. While I'm not opposed to you jumping to doubles, you need control of equipment you've added before adding yet another complexity.

Those of us pursing decompression dives for fun are normally very planful and risk management is a HUGE part of our overall approach. At the pace you are changing your setup up makes you a higher risk. This behavior will tend to turn off those divers that can help with mentoring you towards your goals.
 
Pocky I can not speak for anyone other than myself and the influx of new divers is a great thing!
The diving industry is driven by new and active divers the Tech world has come to the table in the current trends.
Face the fact that in order for the industry to survive it takes money and gear sales / training generate those funds.
The status quo of training in the past was a bit different than it is today research it yourself if you wish it is a simple fact.
Without derailing this thread simply it is organized differently, Agencies standards are different, as well as issuing certifications.
What some have alluded to is the fact that a shift to issuing cards based on the minimum level of proficiency rather than confident mastery of skill proficiency.
Is this thought old school? In a sense yes but in another sense NO!

Agencies have been born from this line of thought or reasoning.
Was that a bad thing?
Are you crazy? No way it has offered a diverse choice of agencies and instructors to choose from for dive training.
There is room in the diving universe for all of them.
Do I agree personally with all the details, regulations, training methods, skill requirements, instructor criteria, professional development, etc.?
Some I do others I don't but it is up to the individual to determine what coarse to follow.

This is a can of worms sorry. It is what it is and there are many thoughts and opinions on this topic.
Good luck enjoy training, stay in the water and demand mastery of the basic skills before ever moving on.

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!
 
Without opening a can of worms, would you mind elaborating on this? I understand that the cert mills have left a bad taste in our mouths, and equipment manufactures have responded with bells, whistles, and wireless everything *shivers*. But are you trying to say that the number of incoming divers is a bad thing, or simply the standard of training/education that often follows?

Divers that can't even handle (or aren't even aware of) most of the problems that can occur on an Open Water dive, are drawn/lead/encouraged to do overhead dives that can be fatal if not done correctly.

flots.
 
Some very interesting and enlightening replies! I'm camped out with those who discovered tec diving relatively early, but having little to no exposure or guidance didn't pay much attention to it. When I started diving relatively shallow wrecks and finding a high level of comfort in bone chilling muck, my curiosity sparked and I began researching it. Shortly thereafter, I spent some time in the Northeast doing a few wrecks on Lake Erie and interacting with a few technical divers, and then the deal was pretty well sealed.



This is exactly the feeling I was given when I started diving, and part of what prompted me to ask. As a new diver, for me to ask the question of "what's tec diving?" would elicit responses from "Those guys are nuts!" to "Why would you want to dive in THAT?"

The addition to this is a perceived conflict of interest as a soon-to-be instructor. On one hand, we are encouraged to share our diving passions, experiences, and goals. In my case, I've taken a specific interest in the Empress of Ireland. While this is a looooong way down the road, it remains a key motivator of mine. On the other hand, we've been specifically told to avoid speaking of technical diving unless we're a technical instructor. This is further complicated by the fact that I can't bring myself to recommend the tec instructor our store has on staff, so any referrals would go to a competing location (however far away). As I've never been that crazy about reefs and sharks, this doesn't leave much for me to talk about without upping the BS factor.



Without opening a can of worms, would you mind elaborating on this? I understand that the cert mills have left a bad taste in our mouths, and equipment manufactures have responded with bells, whistles, and wireless everything *shivers*. But are you trying to say that the number of incoming divers is a bad thing, or simply the standard of training/education that often follows?


I ran into the bolded statement myself as a DM. Along with a number of other reasons, it played into my decision to walk away from that shop and not look back. I was told not to talk about tech diving, tech gear, mixed gasses other than nitrox, etc. Primarily because the shop provided none of it and it meant students would need to look elsewhere, as I had to, to get into it. We can't have that. Divers have to be controlled by the LDS and what they want to do, sell, and provide.

It's BS and another factor in the failure of shops and the industry. They are still operating on outdated ideas and looking at people's own interests as a threat to them. BeforeI did the crossover to TDI to teach Intro, the HOG course, and TDI Nitrox I was teaching what some referred to as "tech skills and concepts" from OW on up.

Starting with anti-silting kicks, which are a necessity locally, gas management, use of SMB's and reels/spools, deep stops, and horizontal trim and proper buoyancy with balanced rig approaches, up through the use of stage bottles for AOW classes. I see absolutley nothing wrong with teaching and in some cases requiring "tech level" skills as something every diver should strive for.

I also do something that was not really done with me. I interview my students and they interview me before I accept any payment. I find out what their interests are. Some admittedly really don't know. THey just think this is cool and want to do it. Fine. The standard OW class approach that I teach is what we'll do. But I have also had students who knew or thought they knew what they wanted to do from day one. And so I tailor the class from OW on to that goal. I started them out in BPW's and long hose set ups.

Spent extra time on non silting kicks and stuff like horizontal air shares. Along with more eyes closed skills to simulate low or zero vis. Then we did more skill related checkout dives as opposed to just verifying their skills. We did skills on every dive not because I required them to but because they wanted to. From there we skipped the AOW class and went into my UW Nav class after they got some dives in on their own. Mainly because it reinforced the team approach, introduced the use of lines, reels, and spools for navigation, and took their anti silting skills to a new level for them. Since we were doing the Nav dives most of the time 1-2 feet off a silty bottom. On purpose.

They then got more dives in and then took AOW. Which they were now ready for the way I teach it. And the required Nav dive was ramped up to really test their Nav skills.

Next was a rescue class after yet again more experience dives.

Then the husband got posted to Africa. When he gets back it looks like Wreck and Intro to Tech.
They have kept diving. So other than a reintroduction to cold water it will not be a huge transition since they have been working on the skills necessary to do so. Because they were introduced to them early.

I do agree that it is not for everybody and am somewhat concerned at the push to put more divers into it who are not ready. But it is to be expected. There's money in it. And those who for years pushed it back or said be quiet are the same ones who called nitrox voodoo gas until they saw they could make a buck from it. Now it's push the nitrox and make extra cash. Don't even make them do caculations for it. Just tell em how to set their computers, collect a check, and send us a cut.

Tech is going the same way because of this. Pretty soon some courses will stop talking about how many people die and how nasty the death is as the introduction to Tech because it will reduce revenue. Then they'll come up with "Get tech certed in a weekend! Just like Open Water! It's fun and you'll meet new people, travel to interesting places, and see new things!"

There'll be hot models in bikini's wearing doubles and slinging stages. With wreck reels as earrings bumping the snorkel on their mask. And they'll all be kneeling in the pool doing s drills.

Again there is nothing wrong with talking about tech to OW divers. Just make sure they know that in tech if something goes wrong they are going to die a lot faster than in the OW class. Although we have seen that quickie OW classes kill people as well.
 
Brandon,

The issue is there is no 'path'. Being one who has talked with you about your plan, I can say you want to move very fast. Most of the advice that has been given is more along the lines of 'scuba is a journey, not a destination.' In reference to gear, we've only pointed out that new gear is added before you are fully comfortable in the previously added piece. An example is you wish to jump immediately to doubles, but have less than 12 drysuit dives - and that's in two different suits (a neoprene Bare and a Fusion). In those 12 dives you've also swapped over to a BP/wing and 7' hose routing. All this while having just completed OW around 9 months ago. While I'm not opposed to you jumping to doubles, you need control of equipment you've added before adding yet another complexity.

Those of us pursing decompression dives for fun are normally very planful and risk management is a HUGE part of our overall approach. At the pace you are changing your setup up makes you a higher risk. This behavior will tend to turn off those divers that can help with mentoring you towards your goals.

I have heard and understood your comments and have taken them to heart. Right now only goal in diving is to get into my Bp/w and settle my gear so I can become comfortable in it. My rush to doubles was based on misguided info I was reading on the boards. Now I have a Hogarthian set up and I just want to dive it and learn it.
My problem was that I bought a bunch of gear before I knew what kind of diving I liked or wanted to do. So I chose to switch it out quickly so I can get back on track to where I want to be.

Now I have what I want and can make the most out I my future dives learning and getting comfortable in this gear. I have no set plans for doubles anymore. I will watch the forums and pick up pieces (bands and manifolds) if I see good deals but like you told me it might be towards the end of the year or next year before I mess with doubles. I felt like I had to do something though regarding my bc because the one I had just wasn't working with the lead I needed for cold water.

Anyway I feel set for now. Lets dive,dive,dive
 

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