Tech through PADI or TDI?

[rjack321]

I am OK with solo diving. Trimix is great. Rebreathers are wonderful machines.
Solo rebreather dive with massive deco or hard overhead? No thanks, if there are other options..

That's your personal risk assessment which is fine. Don't impose your risk calculus on anyone else though. The deepest cave dive in Canada was done last year. There is no class for 94m max depth solo CCR through significant BO bottle-off restrictions in ~40F water. Was his choice, was never going to be pushed any other way.

 

[Lobzilla]

Sorry, should have left rebreathers out of this since it is not an issue for the OP. I did not want to appear to agency bash by listing what some friends had to accomplish during their technical training versus what the typical GUE class looks like.

The difference is whether failures are presented by the instructor as a way to check off skills or whether this is a well orchestrated approach of keeping the team and every member constantly on the edge, constantly thinking, and constantly improving.

There are many great instructors outside of GUE using the latter approach but you will be hard pressed to find one GUE instructor that is satisfied with the former.

(I had the same experience in aviation. There are instructors who ask you to demonstrate this or that and you do it and they say OK and move on to the next item. And then there are those who use every distraction, every sloppiness, every change in the environment you did not notice, as a teaching opportunity. I remember a checkout flight to rent an airplane in Las Vegas. Coming back to the airport, tower assigned me one runway and instructor requested another. At the approach end of that runway was a monster of a thermal updraft that I did not anticipate because I did not pay attention to the geography and how the sun heated different surfaces. So, everything looks great on final approach and suddenly the runway is way below me rather than in front of me. Not so great anymore. So, call tower, go around, factor this into the next approach and from then on always ask yourself what else can screw up an approach, something that is not spelled out in the weather data you get from the airport. The instructor did not need to make me aware of the peculiarities of the environment. All the agency (FAA/insurance) required is that I demonstrate proficient operation of the aircraft. But I certainly appreciated the extra effort when I flew with friends through the Grand Canyon after the checkride. Talk about thermals there.)

 

[rabe]

Damn, you guys have written too much.
The pop corn are ready though...

 

[OzMikeM]

TLDR;

Agency agnostic - make sure you are comfortable with the skills during your course and if you aren't tell your instructor you need to repeat and master the skill.

 

[Germie]

Germie,

As a cave instructor you may have spent some time in Northern Florida. When you ask there which instructor you should train with, you do not have to read much between the lines to find out who is considered competent or not in that community. Granted, nobody will claim there either that agency X is better than agency Y.

But the next time I am down there I could make a list of all cave instructors teaching there and I could solicit a peer vote. I could ask every instructor I run into to rate the other instructors on the list with either a thumbs up or thumbs down. Would you be surprised if there is one agency that would get very few if any thumbs down? (There may be an occasional comment "He is a demanding SOB" in that group though.)

So for the sake of peace let's agree that all agencies have great instructors but that there is at least one agency where you would be hard pressed to find a bad apple in their bushel. There are plenty of great apples in other agencies too but you can't just grab the first one. You need to pick and choose.

I am OK with solo diving. Trimix is great. Rebreathers are wonderful machines.
Solo rebreather dive with massive deco or hard overhead? No thanks, if there are other options.

Similarly, I have flown solo, single engine, in IFR conditions but I knew that I will be totally f***ed if the engine quits or the weather turns into serious hell. (A second engine does not make the weather better but twins have typically de-icing/anti-icing, better instruments, autopilot, etc.). I never pretended that this was a wise choice even after getting away with it.

When I was looking for a tech instructor, cave or trimix, I looked for what fits me. Begin with the end in mind means also take a course that helps you. In diving, and in work or with other hobbies. Nobody else can decide for you. The thing is that sidemount or ccr are/where no options with all agencies, so a way to say no for those. I was interested in this also.
So, on my list of instructors where all extreme experienced divers who do ccr and sidemount also.

Not that others are bad, but not fitting my needs. So easy it can be. And happely you are free to choose. I know great instructors that have a thumb down for myself, just as explained because they dont fit my needs when taking a course. But I dove with some outside courses. And normally you have to do every course just once. No need to spent the time and money to do the same levels with every agency.
I dove in Florida with a lot of great divers and instructors from different agencies. But I did with only one instructor my course, one of the pioniers in cave, ccr and trimix. Tom Mount. With IANTD ( he teaches nacd and nss cds also).
Oh yes, the others were also good, but I could only choose one. So easy it was.

In Thailand was only tdi an option at that time, so I choosed my instructor not agency based. For full trimix it was an instructor advertising iantd. I contacted an utd instructor also, but wanted to do the course in Malta.

So there are other great options, not worser than others. But for some things not every agency or instructor can help you. Or you already have certain level and want to progress. From intro to cave to full cave? Normoxic to full trimix?
Cave with padi? Rebreather with every agency? Rebreather is unit specific, so for some you have to go to iart, iantd or tdi. Others can done with padi or iac also.

 

[Lobzilla]

When I was looking for a tech instructor, cave or trimix, I looked for what fits me. Begin with the end in mind means also take a course that helps you. In diving, and in work or with other hobbies. Nobody else can decide for you. The thing is that sidemount or ccr are/where no options with all agencies, so a way to say no for those. I was interested in this also.
So, on my list of instructors where all extreme experienced divers who do ccr and sidemount also.

Not that others are bad, but not fitting my needs. So easy it can be. And happely you are free to choose. I know great instructors that have a thumb down for myself, just as explained because they dont fit my needs when taking a course. But I dove with some outside courses. And normally you have to do every course just once. No need to spent the time and money to do the same levels with every agency.
I dove in Florida with a lot of great divers and instructors from different agencies. But I did with only one instructor my course, one of the pioniers in cave, ccr and trimix. Tom Mount. With IANTD ( he teaches nacd and nss cds also).
Oh yes, the others were also good, but I could only choose one. So easy it was.

In Thailand was only tdi an option at that time, so I choosed my instructor not agency based. For full trimix it was an instructor advertising iantd. I contacted an utd instructor also, but wanted to do the course in Malta.

So there are other great options, not worser than others. But for some things not every agency or instructor can help you. Or you already have certain level and want to progress. From intro to cave to full cave? Normoxic to full trimix?
Cave with padi? Rebreather with every agency? Rebreather is unit specific, so for some you have to go to iart, iantd or tdi. Others can done with padi or iac also.

Absolutely agree. What matters is the instructor and his/her teaching expertise. The agency can be a starting point for a search or not matter at all.

It's time for me to go diving. You guys have to enjoy the popcorn without me.
Tot ziens.

 

[rgdiver1]

I took IANTD Trimix Diver as well as GUE Tech 1. My IANTD Trimix Diver training was all done in North Florida caves and my GUE Tech 1 training was all done in the ocean. Although I'm glad I got the benefit of both experiences, the GUE training was far more thorough with a much greater emphasis on teamwork and was much more challenging. Personally I would avoid any PADI tech training. TDI may be okay with the right instructor, but if you really want solid tech diver training, I'd go with GUE.

 

[boulderjohn]

Personally I would avoid any PADI tech training.

Yep, don't want to get anywhere near the likes of me. I w as really good when I was a TDI technical instructor, but when I crossed over to PADI, they made me promise to stop being so good.

The Director of Instruction for the National Speleological Society-Cave Diving Section is also PADI, so better steer clear of him, too.

It's all about the cooties.

 

[KevinNM]

The instructor qualification and QC process is so much more effective with GUE than PADI there really isn’t any comparison. For example, how often are PADI tech instructors required to requalify with an instructor examiner? There basically are no incompetent instructors in GUE. Not every instructor may be the right match for each student, but you don’t have to do the extensive research that is the only way to ensure you are not getting an instructor who isn’t very good and/or isn’t just selling cards.

The skill level expected of students to begin tech training is vastly higher than what most other agencies insist on. And part of the effective QC process is that tech instructors who get incompetent students will make a big deal out of it with the original instructor and with the QC board if needed. So a cave course doesn’t need to teach helicopter turns and maintaining buoyancy and trim while doing an air share.

You can find highly qualified instructors teaching with all agencies, but since most agencies take little effort to kick out the ones that all the other instructors know are terrible, it’s up to the least qualified person, a prospective student, to determine who that is. It’s like cops, everyone on the force knows who the “respect mah authoritah” jackasses are, but nobody will act.

 

[boulderjohn]

Don't forget that the owner of GUE is also a PADI instructor, and he has PADi instruction offered at the shops he owns, so that agency should be avoided. I wonder what it is like instructing under those circumstances. How do you remember whether you are supposed to be God-like or incompetent during a class?