Tech through PADI or TDI?

[kensuf]

Tech 1 and Cave 1 have a prerequisite of minimum of 100 logged dives beyond open water certification.
That is in addition to the fundies tech pass.

And there is nothing wrong with having some dive experience under your belt.

 

[Lobzilla]

Well, I'm now committed with PADI, but good to know...

Sunk cost fallacy.

Turn back now.

Let's just say that not all would agree.

I'm going to prepare the pop corn...

The decisive difference is the teaching philosophy of the instructor and the resulting expectations of the student's performance.

One camp grants certification after the student has met the standards at least once. The instructors in this camp use a checklist and if all boxes in front of the required skills are checked you get your cert.

The other camp requires the student to thoroughly understand the subject matter and master the skills to the point where you not just solve standard problems "in your sleep" but can also resolve unusual combinations of issues because you have understood the finer points that determine outcomes.

When I started diving after two decades as an aviator, I was first trained in the first camp by an SSI instructor. That struck me as being way too thin if something very serious would ever happen under water.

I then switched to GUE where I found the approach I had learned to appreciate in aviation. "A superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid situations that necessitate his superior skills". Where "good" in class is deemed not good enough in a real emergency.

Being in this camp I met several instructors from other agencies that subscribe to the same training philosophy. That a grueling class and a real problem solved with ease is better than an easy class and a grueling reality check later.

I did not count the hundreds of simulated engine failures in my aviation training but when I experienced the real deal, it was business as usual. Aviate, navigate, communicate. My knees started shaking after being safely back on the ground. This was the result of a training methodology that is sufficiently rigorous to meet the challenges of the environment.

The name of a SCUBA agency determines the likelihood of any given instructor falling in one camp or the other. But you still need to decide which approach you prefer for aquiring critical survival skills.

My personal experience is that with GUE you will be in the demanding camp by default and with the big agencies you have to carefully choose the instructor if you want to stay out of the checkbox certification camp.

Is the popcorn ready yet?

 

[rabe]

not yet...

 

[Germie]

No. Another point to choose: For me it is important that I don't want to start with a whole day theory. To start with a half day theory is fine, but then at least 1 long dive. If that is not possible, than it will not be my instructor to do a course with. I don't teach this way myself also. Of course theory is needed, but not a whole day and no diving.
It is 1 of the questions I ask before signing up for a course.

 

[seeker242]

The moral is always high!!
I'm looking at GUE right now, and it looks very different form PADI: the limits are really pushed... Technical Diver Level 1 | Global Underwater Explorers
Basically T1 is like Tec50... Isn't too much (dangerous?) skip so many steps at once?

I haven't take a class yet but I've looked into all the tech classes from PADI, TDI and GUE. I would not say it's too much or skipping anything. It's just that PADI breaks the steps into the smallest of increments. Meanwhile, GUE is on the opposite side of that spectrum and TDI is somewhere in the middle. That's the impression I get from looking into them anyway. One reason I think is because GUE, as a safety measure, uses a max END of 100' for all dives, which is conservative compared to the other agencies.

 

[taimen]

Meanwhile, GUE is on the opposite side of that spectrum and TDI is somewhere in the middle.

There is also IANTD Advanced Recreational Trimix you could consider?

 

[Lorenzoid]

I can't defend the first camp (the "major agencies"?) because I myself gravitated to GUE, and I get the impression that TDI instructors are largely in the same "other" camp (a few even cross over with GUE). However, I am not sure the following is accurate.

One camp grants certification after the student has met the standards at least once. The instructors in this camp use a checklist and if all boxes in front of the required skills are checked you get your cert.

Some instructors may do that, and there may be pressure by instructors' employers, but it's my understanding that at least PADI requires a student perform each skill more than once--"master" it. As I see it, the most significant difference between the two camps is quality control over what instructors teach and require.

 

[Germie]

First the small steps is a choice, some need it, others don't. I dove already to over 50m in my recreational diving phase, so an advanced recreational Trimix course (51m) was not a big step in depth. I calculated time, and price to get at 100m and found that 3 courses where needed: adv. nitrox or ART, normoxic and full trimix. So this was the way to go for me.

So you could do the ART course (51m) with trimix also, that is from IANTD. The END is always a personal choice and in courses there are standards. But always you can decide to have an END lower than 30m, or 36, or 39 (max END in some standards, ART 24). Deep air is not needed.

Doing a 'DIR' course to become a DIR diver is also not needed, it is a mentality. I did courses with more 'DIR' instructors and with the totally opposite. I like the freedom to choose. I can do ratio deco, pragmatic deco, solo, standardgases, best mix, etc. It is just a choice and one is not better or worser than another. It is what fits you. I am quite 'DIR' with the finkicks, procedures, but less with the gaschoices (best mix also works and sometimes ean80 is better than 100%). I teach pragmatic deco. In cave I tell students both options (for example team cookies or individual cookies). If you want to carry stages left-right I tell the disadvantages also and let divers try both. I dive only left with leash myself when diving OC. But you are allowed to try left-right if you think it is better.

Talk to your instructor, ask about his ideas about diving. And then decide. More DIR or less DIR. It is your choice.

 

[Miyaru]

...
"A superior pilot uses superior judgement to avoid situations that necessitate his superior skills". Where "good" in class is deemed not good enough in a real emergency.
....

Good argument!
And replacing pilot with diver would result in the ideal situation. That result should be something to aim for, regardless of the agency that the instructor is teaching for.

Real life however, shows that there's a side effect to this diver with superior skills. Not only the skills become superior, but so does the attitude. That's where the term elite comes in. Take for example this topic, which is about the choice between TDI and PADI. Doesn't take long before some divers of the Elite Corps start pushing the thread towards their own superior agency. Somehow, that elite attitude is very specific for GUE divers.

Happened before, will happen again.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Real life however, shows that there's a side effect to this diver with superior skills. Not only the skills become superior, but so does the attitude. That's where the term elite comes in. Take for example this topic, which is about the choice between TDI and PADI. Doesn't take long before some divers of the Elite Corps start pushing the thread towards their own superior agency. Somehow, that elite attitude is very specific for GUE divers.

Happened before, will happen again.

I cannot agree fully with this. Now I do say that the best thing about GUE are the people, and at the same time the worst thing about GUE is the people. I have found them to be extremely helpful overall in my area. I have found the novice ones to typically be reasonable. I see more of the mid range ones to be a little more rabid. But the only GUE IT I’ve met in person is Guy Shockey out of Vancouver BC. He’s a super nice guy, not pushy, always willing to have a respectful conversation about diving and he is a good representative not just if GUE, but of diving overall. He never participates (afaik) in online forums. Maybe he has in the past and stopped as a result of the level of civility that is common.

Interesting blog post by Chatterton. I can see this happening and it is interesting as despite experiencing team separation event that occurred in my area almost a year ago by some highly trained GUE divers (T2,C1), some still didn’t get the fact that at times it is every man (or woman) for himself (or herself - why do I hear Stan from Life of Brian in my head right now?) when things go sideways.

Things do go sideways on occasion which can be fatal for those unprepared (and still fatal for those who are).

While team diving skills should be a foundation for any technical diving course, any course that lacks self reliance has a critical hole in it. Separation happens. In some cases, teams may stay together but if one dies, guess what: the surviving diver is now solo.