Tech in the caribbean

[nadwidny]

My CF is substantially warmer than my DC UltraFlex which (according to friends that have gone the other way) is warmer than a TLS. And its all about how much tolerance to cold you buy with the addition of more lead. The CF required adding very little lead and made a major difference in tolerance to cold. And after 90 minutes in the water with comparable undergarmets (everyone in 400g + Ar) everyone in TLSes are shivering cold. The divers around here who do 120+ min dives in TLS suits wind up adding additional layers of thinsulate to 400g and even more lead and the result starts to get fairly far away from balanced and restricts mobility. The CF also provides additional thermal insulation that won't be affected by a flood (and several divers around here have gotten into serious trouble on deep dives due to suit rips). You could add a heating pad, which is something nobody around here seems to have experimented with, but you lose that in a total flood as well...

I'm happy with my CF and so far I haven't seen anyone figure out how to comfortably dive a TLS around here on long, cold dives...

You do realize that everything you said completely contradicts physics. There are no substantial extra insulating properties to the CF material over any other shell suit. The difference in insulatiing value of 1mm of rubber over .5mm of Trilam is next to nothing. If your group is finding the CF warmer than the TLS suits using similar underwear then there are other elements in play than the material of the suit. My experience with the CF is that it tends to trap larger pockets of air in the folds. With the current trend of "shrink wrap" suits that would explain why folks tend to think the CF is warmer.

If the CF fans find comfort in their placebo, then more power to them. It just drives me batty when they try and BS everyone else with snake oil.

 

[nadwidny]

Oh yeah, and CF is not DIR. Just ask George.

 

[TSandM]

Brian, I'd love to know what you are using under a TLS to do deco diving where you do it -- I've seen the pictures of Jeff under the ice!

For me, the limiting factor on my dives is thermal tolerance. I don't use much gas, and I don't do depths that limit me for a deco consideration, so I end my dives when I'm cold, and it's too soon to suit me. I have tried adding insulation, but the weight penalty for doing so becomes absolutely painful. I carry 16 lbs on my waist with double 95s; add any more insulation, and that keeps going up. My compressed neo suit carried a two pound weight penalty, but makes it possible for me to dive for 60 minutes without coming up shivering and sick.

You'll say get better undergarments, but the ones I'm using are widely used. I don't have a DUI 400g Thinsulate jumpsuit, but I have 400g of Thinsulate in 2 layers, plus a fleece underlayer, plus (when it's working) a heated vest, plus argon. I don't know where to go from there.

The combination of poor bone density and multiple layers of undergarment very quickly adds up to a prohibitive penalty in total weight. The compressed neoprene suit helps with very little cost in additional weighting.

Believe me, if I could come up with an insulation strategy that made my trilaminate suit usable in the wintertime, I'd love it. That suit is much more flexible and much lighter, and dries far faster. But it's not warm. And I like long dives.

 

[nadwidny]

Brian, I'd love to know what you are using under a TLS to do deco diving where you do it

Weezle Extreme+ (extremely non-DIR) with a DC vest of some sort of Thinsulate and a poly wicking layer. For the 30-40F stuff I might add some fleece pants and a vest. And a good helping of Bioprene. I also don't believe in the shrink wrap shtick. Gas-in-suit equals warmth. It's just basic physics.

-- I've seen the pictures of Jeff under the ice!

And I've seen him in his underwear (shudder).

For me, the limiting factor on my dives is thermal tolerance. I don't use much gas, and I don't do depths that limit me for a deco consideration, so I end my dives when I'm cold, and it's too soon to suit me. I have tried adding insulation, but the weight penalty for doing so becomes absolutely painful. I carry 16 lbs on my waist with double 95s; add any more insulation, and that keeps going up. My compressed neo suit carried a two pound weight penalty, but makes it possible for me to dive for 60 minutes without coming up shivering and sick. You'll say get better undergarments, but the ones I'm using are widely used. I don't have a DUI 400g Thinsulate jumpsuit, but I have 400g of Thinsulate in 2 layers, plus a fleece underlayer, plus (when it's working) a heated vest, plus argon. I don't know where to go from there. The combination of poor bone density and multiple layers of undergarment very quickly adds up to a prohibitive penalty in total weight. The compressed neoprene suit helps with very little cost in additional weighting.

Believe me, if I could come up with an insulation strategy that made my trilaminate suit usable in the wintertime, I'd love it. That suit is much more flexible and much lighter, and dries far faster. But it's not warm. And I like long dives

Sad fact is that some people just get cold. It could be due to metabolism, BMI, or whatever. I know people like you. All I can say is that it sucks to be you. You may want to look in to the electric heating that some of us are using. You may also want to try one of those full blown neoprene suits. There are a few manufacturers in Canada that make them. Or accept the fact that you can't do long and cold and adjust your diving accordingly. One can't fight Mother Nature. We are what we are.

 

[Bismark]

Hi Bjorn,

Come on over to the Island, Mark and I will only be too happy to dive with you. Tech diving in someplace like Bonaire is a whole different animal than cold water tech. We did the windjammer again a couple of days ago and at the stern we could see the entire 230' length of the boat. What can I say about that? We also got to spend a lot of time in the water for the tech I course. In July, Benji and I did a did at Red Slave where we dove on some very old sailing ship anchors in the 170' range. This time, Mark and I and Benji did the same dive and filmed those anchors and found more. Pretty cool. Some of them must have been 6' tall.

Doug, I took my drysuit, but it was too hot to use it, even with minimal undergarments. Dan and I used 3mm suits, while three other tech I students used 5mm suits, but they live there and aren't used to the cold! 3mm was fine with 83-84 degree water, but when we started diving below 100-110', we hit a thermalcline that must have dropped the temp to a frigid 78-79! All joking aside, I would probably use a 5mm for the tech dives but 3mm was good for the course. I had pockets put on before the course up here in Vancouver and they were neoprene and stitched on so they look pretty sharp.

I know, tech in a wetsuit......... but you adapt to the environment, right?

 

[jeckyll]

Guy: Sounds like you had an amazing time! I'm thinking if I ever go do tech I'll do it someplace warm

I'll be in touch in a couple of weeks or so, got out for a couple of easy dives in the doubles and the knee did fine (though I think I may need a new neck seal, I was hella-wet!)

 

[Bob Sherwood]

well, ......seems like there is enough interest for a group in the warm clear waters of cayman. we need three committed people and we are good for a week in cayman. if you people are serious, get together and committ. the week of April 19-26, or the 26May 3rd. I already have three people talking about the first week so look at the 26-3rd. no one has given deposit yet. after that , I'm headed to seattle i think. :-( I tried to get the other seatlle group to come to cayman too, but they decided home was ok. hahahahaha./ best, bob

 

[dsteding]

well, ......seems like there is enough interest for a group in the warm clear waters of cayman. we need three committed people and we are good for a week in cayman. if you people are serious, get together and committ. the week of April 19-26, or the 26May 3rd. I already have three people talking about the first week so look at the 26-3rd. no one has given deposit yet. after that , I'm headed to seattle i think. :-( I tried to get the other seatlle group to come to cayman too, but they decided home was ok. hahahahaha./ best, bob

I'm working on a group. The week of the 19-26th may work better if I can make it fly, are there enough resources on the island to do two T1 classes the same week (you teaching one, Fraser the other)?

I'll shoot you a PM with my contact info.

-Doug

 

[Bob Sherwood]

yes, we can handle that best, bob