Tech/ doubles reg set

[rhwestfall]

if your Apeks are fine, why sell them?

Perhaps future uncertainty (Aqualung's significant financial issues)...

Would you (or anyone else with the knowledge) kindly elaborate on the technical reasons that make deep6 a superior choice over Apeks and/or Scubapro when parts, servicing and cost are taken out of the equation?

See comment above for Apeks,,,

And basically "parts, servicing and cost" are the basis for selection. Regulators are simple tools, and the major names are only very subtly different...

 

[tbone1004]

@tbone1004 asking here so the info is available on the board, once and for all!

I've read a few of your other posts speaking very highly of deep6 regs. I currently have Apeks DST/XTX50 x2 (5th port and swivel for sidemount) and although I'm not yet in a position where I need deco stages, I think it may be a consideration in the next year or so. I'm intending to take @rsingler 's reg servicing training when he has some 2024 slots available with the intention of servicing my own regs.

I'm starting to consider additional regs now and I like the idea of having the same ones on all tanks for ease of parts and servicing. I'm between either getting more Apeks regs, or selling my Apeks ones to replace with either deep6 signature or mk19 evo/g260. Scubapro and Apeks are available to me at the same price point as deep6, so there's no cost advantage. Deep6 servicing advantage is mitigated by rsingler's training and parts availability is mitigated by numerous online Euro sellers, scubagaskets.com, and a friend who's a SP reg tech with access to legit SP parts.

Would you (or anyone else with the knowledge) kindly elaborate on the technical reasons that make deep6 a superior choice over Apeks and/or Scubapro when parts, servicing and cost are taken out of the equation?

the Apeks design has been effectively unchanged for well over a decade. Don't fix it if it isn't broken, but at the same time it is arguably broken, particularly when it comes to their choices in soft materials and their quality of plating. The plating quality is likely an environmental issue as they are made in the UK, but the plating simply does not hold up as well as some of the other options.
In terms of breathing characteristics, there are very few divers who can actually tell the difference between any of the regs you have mentioned, and it largely comes down to a total cost of ownership and some other perks. I like the fact that I can harass @LandonL and @cerich if I want to know anything about the product, I like the fact that they passionately support their customers and are actively development new products. I like that it is a privately owned company instead of just a small piece of a massive conglomerate. I like that they actively support their divers by making not only parts, but also the training freely available instead of using fear mongering to keep people away. @rinsgler can also speak to some of it as he effectively wrote the service manuals for the current Deep6 regs and comment about what he has seen as far as internals in the most recent revisions.
If the price is equal for all of those regulators both up front and to maintain, then it comes down to which type of company do you want to support. The Deep6 is a better regulator, if you pull it apart you can't really argue against that, but we are talking minute details that most people will never notice or care about so it comes down to who you want to support.

 

[rverma]

Thanks everyone for your input! I suppose there's no real reason to get rid of my Apeks regs if I decide to get a different set down the road. No reason except OCD anyway. I'm not extremely worried about Apeks/Aqualung going out of business because surely parts will be available from somewhere. There are so many of these regs out there and the company has been around so long, I assume even if they go bankrupt, generic parts kits would still be available at places like scubagaskets.

I definitely wouldn't be the person to be able to tell the difference on breathing characteristics... I've been known to forget my reg in pre-dive for the entire dive. If there are no design aspects that make any of them clearly superior, then I guess it makes the decision easier in a way.

I do like the idea of supporting a smaller company that's founded by divers and is extremely passionate about their products. I guess my main hangup is that because it's small, I may find myself in a situation where the company is on its heels and I'm unable to get parts because the customer base is smaller than Apeks/Aqualung. I don't know how valid that concern actually is though.

 

[LandonL]

I'm not extremely worried about Apeks/Aqualung going out of business because surely parts will be available from somewhere. There are so many of these regs out there and the company has been around so long, I assume even if they go bankrupt, generic parts kits would still be available at places like scubagaskets.

Unfortunately I think that outcome is inevitable given the latest financial data. AL/Apeks only had a combined €7.4 million in earnings, and is now somewhere near €180 million in debt. The global trademarks for Apeks were just mortgaged for €25 million, and Apeks only brings in around £15.6 million annually on total revenue, whole losing around £170k each year.

The goose is cooked, actually it's burnt to a crisp. How does a company already losing money like Apeks pay off a loan taken by their parent company, when the loan amount is 138% of their total revenue?

Yes generic parts will be available, but support and replacement parts will certainly be an issue. It already is with numerous stories of people waiting years for parts and kits from them lately.

I am not saying this to be negative, more to highlight that the mindset of 'oh they are too big to fail' isn't realistic. Dacor was once enormous too.

Aqualung is in serious trouble when their debts are nearly 7x their entire company value, and the entire global earnings aren't even enough to service the interest payments.

Consider the magnitude of this amount of debt.... even if the loans were interest free, it would take them 25 years to pay it off.

I do like the idea of supporting a smaller company that's founded by divers and is extremely passionate about their products. I guess my main hangup is that because it's small, I may find myself in a situation where the company is on its heels and I'm unable to get parts because the customer base is smaller than Apeks/Aqualung. I don't know how valid that concern actually is though.

Not a valid concern. We are debt free. I don't do this because I need to, I do this because I want to. At the end of the day you should support whoever you feel most comfortable with. I wouldn't want anyone diving our products that has doubts. All the best, just wanted to put this into a bit of perspective.

 

[happy-diver]

and best of all there's this

Service Manual

www.deep6gear.com

Disclaimer: and if you don't know what you are doing but you put it together and it works, it works

 

[ams511]

Unfortunately I think that outcome is inevitable given the latest financial data. AL/Apeks only had a combined €7.4 million in earnings, and is now somewhere near €180 million in debt. The global trademarks for Apeks were just mortgaged for €25 million, and Apeks only brings in around £15.6 million annually on total revenue, whole losing around £170k each year.

The goose is cooked, actually it's burnt to a crisp. How does a company already losing money like Apeks pay off a loan taken by their parent company, when the loan amount is 138% of their total revenue?

Yes generic parts will be available, but support and replacement parts will certainly be an issue. It already is with numerous stories of people waiting years for parts and kits from them lately.

I am not saying this to be negative, more to highlight that the mindset of 'oh they are too big to fail' isn't realistic. Dacor was once enormous too.

Aqualung is in serious trouble when their debts are nearly 7x their entire company value, and the entire global earnings aren't even enough to service the interest payments.

Consider the magnitude of this amount of debt.... even if the loans were interest free, it would take them 25 years to pay it off.

Landon, I am interested in knowing where you are getting the financial information for Aqualung/Apeks. It is notoriously difficult to find financial information on private firms, because they are not publicly-traded. So they don't need to release financial information.

I think the Aqualung situation is different than Dacor. First, according to the press releases Aqualung is being sold to Barings which is part of the lender group. So they actually owe the money to themselves not to a third party that could force a liquidation. Second, Aqualung is in the EU, and it is not a simple matter to declare bankruptcy and move on. Unlike the US, the EU provides protection to employees. For example when GM wanted to shutdown Opel during the Great Recession the Germans blocked it and told GM to sell it instead. GM actually decided to keep the division.

Full disclosure. I do own some older Apeks and Aqualung gear. I am not a big fan of Aqualung because I find their product line (especially regulators) overly convoluted. Do we really need multiple Legend models?

 

[happy-diver]

Regulator Service Kits

www.gidivestore.com

 

[LandonL]

Landon, I am interested in knowing where you are getting the financial information for Aqualung/Apeks. It is notoriously difficult to find financial information on private firms, because they are not publicly-traded. So they don't need to release financial information.

A lot of the data IS public now though.

This topic has a 30+ page thread here on Scubaboard, with lots of links to the relevant information. I will link it at page 28 where you can see a lot of great information that @iain/hsm has posted going forward of that.

Info - Aqualung Financial Troubles

North America reorganization Closure of Carlsbad and Hawaï -termination of SSP activity in NA The Aqualung Group has announced on December 12 a progressive shut down of its activities at its Carlsbad (California) and Hawaii facilities and the transfer of its distribution American office to...

scubaboard.com

The Aqualung financial data became public when the French courts ordered them to restructure, as they were/are/will be heading to bankruptcy. Yes I know they didn't use that word, but let's call a duck a duck. You can read about it here, search for the section titled "Aqualung On The Verge of Bankruptcy"


If you want to see financial and company data for Apeks, the UK is much more transparent than the US. This link includes financial data, including P&L reports and total accounting.

APEKS MARINE EQUIPMENT LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

APEKS MARINE EQUIPMENT LIMITED - Free company information from Companies House including registered office address, filing history, accounts, annual return, officers, charges, business activity

find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk

Here is the letter sent by the new CEO of Aqualung Group, firing 60 of 83 US employees, and downsizing their North American footprint to a new facility with 7 in person jobs. See PDF in linked post.

Info - Aqualung Financial Troubles

North America reorganization Closure of Carlsbad and Hawaï -termination of SSP activity in NA The Aqualung Group has announced on December 12 a progressive shut down of its activities at its Carlsbad (California) and Hawaii facilities and the transfer of its distribution American office to...

scubaboard.com

I think the Aqualung situation is different than Dacor. First, according to the press releases Aqualung is being sold to Barings which is part of the lender group. So they actually owe the money to themselves not to a third party that could force a liquidation.

It wasn't 'sold' to Barings.. the euphemistic term they used was 'acquired', which is their way of saying they effectively foreclosed on the debt. The company owes something significantly north of 13.6x its EBITDA. They are just trying to recover what little they can from this toxic deal. Aqualung only showed €7.4M euro in profits BEFORE Interest (on debt above €150M), taxes, depreciation, and amortization. Point blank - they are not capable of servicing the interest on debt, let alone the debt.

To put it into perspective, it's like you only make $74,000/yr, but you owe $1,750,000 (1.75m), with interest only payments of $148,750/yr (based on current prime rate).

On December 7th, Apeks managing director signed a security agreement for €25M with Glas SAS in Paris as Agent. So this means Aqualung secured that debt.... with the trademarks and IP of Apeks. It mortgaged the the child to pay for the parent.
Keep in mind this loan is significantly larger than the entire annual revenue stream of Apeks.

Info - Aqualung Financial Troubles

3 weeks prior on the 7th he signed the 25 million euro security agreement we discussed So the 25m euro loan was for Apeks only?

scubaboard.com

Second, Aqualung is in the EU, and it is not a simple matter to declare bankruptcy and move on. Unlike the US, the EU provides protection to employees.

I can assure you a business that is sinking, will eventually sink. The French court ruling was a finger in the dam.

For example when GM wanted to shutdown Opel during the Great Recession the Germans blocked it and told GM to sell it instead. GM actually decided to keep the division.

I can also confidently say Barings has no intention of keeping Aqualung. They will want to pawn off this lead balloon eventually, after they have stripped the assets to recover every penny they can of course.