Teaching nothing

[MichaelMc]

I find the idea of having to redistribute weight to enjoy my recreational dive ridiculous and improbable in normal rented dive gear (the one that again, 90% of divers use)

I had some dives where I started with 18kg of weights on my belt and ended it with 6 rocks in my pockets and a co2 headache from all the skip breathing I had to do so I don't shoot up to the surface. The divers I was guiding had fun though.
The thing you guys are preaching have nothing to do with reality.

I slid over your argument that 90% of divers are properly weighted in standard rental gear that places all their weight at the hips.

I think the vast majority of vacation divers that look like sea horses and automatically go vertical from gravity, instead of conscious choice, when they stop, and have to repeatedly get their legs semi-hornzontal again to move, argues against them being properly weighted.

Yes, that world of diving is dominant, and people enjoy seeing the pretty fish.
The question is can we teach them better.

Dive ops accepting extra pocket use and having small weights is a separate issue, but it is not some huge fundamental barrier to divers trained differently. (I'd argue trained more completely.)

 

[RyanT]

@wetb4igetinthewater, I really like your approach!

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I've never been with an instructor who didn't carry extra weight. I've seen perfectly weighted newbies lose complete control when they get too anxious and can't get their mental center back. Proper weighting is a start but things can go awry for any number of reasons.

Ok, but I don't do that for a reason. Things can certainly go sideways, but that is why I keep class sizes small (1:2 ratios, which will be the same ratio I have when I open my own dive center). Instructors have only 2 hands, so if one has a problem, the instructor has to be able to maintain control.

Depending on who I'm diving with I might add a few pounds "just in case".

Of course. But if you ever had to give off weight - and since you don't carry extra weight - YOU would be underweighted. I have been in this situation myself after giving weight to someone struggling. I managed. I expect you can too. But you didn't do it by doing nothing.

We have different practices. I understand your motivation why you do this. I hope you understand my motivation for not doing so.

Proper weighting isn't everything either. Being able to hold position in the water comes from many things beyond just proper weighting. I can switch from a wet 3mm in one dive to a dry 5mm in the next without changing the weight in my bcd and still control my position.

that's because you have sufficient experience. You can overweight me like crazy, and I can handle it. But I'd rather not. I don't expect students to handle being massively overweighted. Instructors often do as they place them firmly on their knees, and then expect them to hover while being overweighted and foot heavy. That's setting them up for frustration and at times failure.

I believe, and respect if you do not agree, that proper weighting is huge. Would you be willing to read my blog series on how I teach and look at the DAN 2016 report?

Can you teach your students that? You didn't trivialize. I just feel the duck is a much better analogy because it takes something to look like you are doing nothing

Thanks!

@wetb4igetinthewater
If you want to teach "nothing", you need to teach that it takes a lot of things to do nothing - weight, trim, proper use of equipment, breathing, control of body position, mental state. Did I miss anything?

That basically covers it. In order to do nothing, I as the instructor have to get them there. I need to weight them properly, including distributing weight. I need to ensure training is progressive at a rate in which they are comfortable and build confidence. I need to teach them to breath slowly and deeply from their bellies. I need to teach them to relax themselves.

That is my job. Once doing nothing is established, then finning, ascending/descending comes much easier. They have to do more things, but having the focus and control makes it far easier.

So maybe this is what should be the result:

"Hey, I heard that Kosta was your open water instructor. He's kind of a loundmouth on Scubaboard. What did he teach you?"

"He taught us nothing!"

 

[Boarderguy]

I don't understand all the poo-pooing on the idea of teaching students how to achieve a properly weighted and neutral position in the water. This can be done in a poodle jacket or bp/w. The key is to teach the student how to determine where and how much weight they need. Pool sessions give them an idea for warm water vacation dives. Shallow OW dives give them a baseline for cold water dives (PNW for me and OP). The student has a log to fill out with their weights and locations. Teaching your student how to do it is different than demonstrating and expecting them to do it properly after you've set them up. This is what @wetb4igetinthewater is getting at. He's teaching his students how to weight themselves and where to place it. Instructors who don't do that churn out divers like my wife who need more help than is worth more often than not.

 

[Vicko]

I slid over your argument that 90% of divers are properly weighted in standard rental gear that places all their weight at the hips.

That was not my argument, my argument is that a diver should be taught to be comfortable diving in different weighting and trim configurations, not just in your idea of a proper one.

 

[BoltSnap]

Things can certainly go sideways, but that is why I keep class sizes small (1:2 ratios, which will be the same ratio I have when I open my own dive center). Instructors have only 2 hands, so if one has a problem, the instructor has to be able to maintain control.

If a certified instructor can only maintain control when he has no more than 2 students in normal circumstances, there an issue with his training and competency to be an instructor. The instructor needs brains, eyes, hands and wisdom to control his students and prevent issues before they start.

 

[MichaelMc]

That was not my argument, my argument is that a diver should be taught to be comfortable diving in different weighting and trim configurations, not just in your idea of a proper one.

Hmm.

Humans are characterized as changing their environment to suit them.

I think an approach of "The world is sh*t, so we condition you to be used to it." is less optimal than "Here is how to adjust the world to be better".

I can dive with my weight all messed up. I will go vertical from gravity when I stop, and spend lots more energy because of that every time I move. But I'd rather dive with my weight set so the dive for me is easier and much more enjoyable.

 

[KatieMac]

Ok, but I don't do that for a reason. Things can certainly go sideways, but that is why I keep class sizes small (1:2 ratios, which will be the same ratio I have when I open my own dive center). Instructors have only 2 hands, so if one has a problem, the instructor has to be able to maintain control.

We have different practices. I understand your motivation why you do this. I hope you understand my motivation for not doing so.

that's because you have sufficient experience. You can overweight me like crazy, and I can handle it. But I'd rather not. I don't expect students to handle being massively overweighted. Instructors often do as they place them firmly on their knees, and then expect them to hover while being overweighted and foot heavy. That's setting them up for frustration and at times failure.

I believe, and respect if you do not agree, that proper weighting is huge. Would you be willing to read my blog series on how I teach and look at the DAN 2016 report?

Thanks!


That basically covers it. In order to do nothing, I as the instructor have to get them there. I need to weight them properly, including distributing weight. I need to ensure training is progressive at a rate in which they are comfortable and build confidence. I need to teach them to breath slowly and deeply from their bellies. I need to teach them to relax themselves.

That is my job. Once doing nothing is established, then finning, ascending/descending comes much easier. They have to do more things, but having the focus and control makes it far easier.

So maybe this is what should be the result:

"Hey, I heard that Kosta was your open water instructor. He's kind of a loundmouth on Scubaboard. What did he teach you?"

"He taught us nothing!"

Finning! I knew I missed something.

The "breathe slowly and deeply" thing is off a bit too. It doesn't really translate well for new divers. They tend to think they need to breathe fully in and out on every breath.

One way I explain that I found even newbies understand is to use half of your lungs, use the middle half when you want to stay at the same level, use the bottom (fuller) half when you need to ascend and use the top (emptier) half when you want to descend.

 

[Boarderguy]

Why is that important? What benefit is there for the diver from being able to remain motionless at any depth? How does it directly affect their safety or enjoyment of the dive? Why does it have to be this exact? As long as the diver can/knows how to control their buoyancy and doesn't crash into the coral or other things u/w and can up or down when they want/need to, why does it matter to be so precise/exact? What evidence do you have to buttress your argument/thesis here?

Inquirer minds want to know

Burham, when you dive do you just swim for 45-60 minutes or do your like to stop and look at things. Proper weighting and trim helps the diver to achieve these things. Even vacation divers in poodle SP jackets like to look at corral and fish. Teaching them how to achieve balance without waving their arms are having to be moving via find improves their underwater experience.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

That was not my argument, my argument is that a diver should be taught to be comfortable diving in different weighting and trim configurations, not just in your idea of a proper one.

When it comes to weighting, should not compensating for the difference between the center of mass and center of displacement be addressed?