Teaching nothing

[TMHeimer]

This is a good analogy for this discussion because we’re expecting someone that just learned to stand to be able to dance like a pro.

Perfect trim and buoyancy take experience and experimentation to develop and fine tune. That means time in the water. It’s unrealistic to expect from someone that just learned to dive, and barely knows how to assemble rental gear.

If this were a requirement, SCUBA classes would be unaffordable for students and unprofitable for instructors, due to the amount of time students would be in training.

We’re talking about probably less than 20% of divers that have high-level skills, but newly certified divers are supposed to have skills most experienced divers don’t? Doesn’t make sense.

Yes I agree. To get back to the neutral training once again-- When I read about how good this works for some instructors I do get the feeling that it is very easy for someone who has no experience diving (or even little or no experience in water) to get hovering down fairly quickly in the pool and then be able to do the 24 skills more easily than on the bottom. I'm not saying I disagree and that bottom training is just as good because I was done as a DM before neutrality became big. I still have to feel that logically it is harder for a beginner to do a skill like doff & don while neutral. But, I admit I could be very wrong and some very experienced instructors here say I am. Your post says it takes lots of water time to get buoyancy so perfect so that kind of fits with my thinking.

 

[MichaelMc]

Imagine teaching someone to skate without teaching them to stand still, to move in a simple line smoothly and to start and stop smoothly. Would you?

This is a good analogy for this discussion because we’re expecting someone that just learned to stand to be able to dance like a pro.

I deliberately chose "move in a simple line smoothly", not "Do triple turns, drops and leaps, like a pro"

ETA: If the instructor does not initially adjust the student's weights for a neutral weight distribution (confined water dive one: instructor adjust for trim) and talk about it, it is unlikely the student will magically find that on their own and the benefit of it.

 

[NothingClever]

I recall my Fundies instructor analogizing the process of learning to dive skillfully to a baby learning to walk. First, we learn to “crawl.” That is, begin by learning the absolutely most rudimentary skill: staying still and doing nothing at all. THEN, we can learn to “walk,” i.e., do a real dive. Fundies ends without teaching the student to “dance,” but to me the analogy sounds like it might be technical, cave, etc.

I’d say “run” in lieu of dance. So, from the top:

Crawl - NB/T

Walk - Effective finning for maneuver while NB/T

Run - Add complexities such as strong currents, night, DPV, cold water and other variables in conditions that fall short of technical diving.

I know you intuitively know all that, I’m just dog-piling on for others that may not.

 

[boulderjohn]

still have to feel that logically it is harder for a beginner to do a skill like doff & don while neutral. But, I admit I could be very wrong and some very experienced instructors here say I am.

I have said many times that some of the skills are easier to do while in horizontal trim and neutral than others. I never said it was easier to do all skills while neutrally buoyant. The primary reason you do them neutrally is not because it is easier for the students to do it that way. You do it so the student is constantly learning to master buoyancy.

Remember that the doff and don exercise is at the end of the confined water portion of the class. By that time, the student will have hours of practice swimming while neutrally buoyant. I am sure it would be easier to do a doff and don while on the bottom, but by that time in the course the student should be able to do it neutrally. I personally gave the students the option of doing it neutrally in mid water or while in contact with the floor, and about 75% did it in mid water (which is how I demoed it).

 

[TMHeimer]

I have said many times that some of the skills are easier to do while in horizontal trim and neutral than others. I never said it was easier to do all skills while neutrally buoyant. The primary reason you do them neutrally is not because it is easier for the students to do it that way. You do it so the student is constantly learning to master buoyancy.

Remember that the doff and don exercise is at the end of the confined water portion of the class. By that time, the student will have hours of practice swimming while neutrally buoyant. I am sure it would be easier to do a doff and don while on the bottom, but by that time in the course the student should be able to do it neutrally. I personally gave the students the option of doing it neutrally in mid water or while in contact with the floor, and about 75% did it in mid water (which is how I demoed it).

Yeah, agree with you 100%. One of my other thoughts is the big reason teaching neutrally is better is not actually doing skills that way, but because the whole class is neutral all the time while watching one person do a skill, rather what wasting time on the bottom.

 

[boulderjohn]

but because the whole class is neutral all the time while watching one person do a skill, rather what wasting time on the bottom.

Yep! Rather than just kneeling and watching others take their turns dong skills, you are working on your buoyancy.

I also learned to be patient. I thought about this once while waiting for students on CW #2 to get into position to watch me demonstrate a skill. One of the students was a bit behind the others, and I watched him as I waited to begin the demonstration. He was above the others and got down to them by exhaling and drifting down. It took a while, but that was CW #2, and he was already more skilled in buoyancy than many traditional students are at the end of the confined water session.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I recall my Fundies instructor analogizing the process of learning to dive skillfully to a baby learning to walk. First, we learn to “crawl.” That is, begin by learning the absolutely most rudimentary skill: staying still and doing nothing at all. THEN, we can learn to “walk,” i.e., do a real dive. Fundies ends without teaching the student to “dance,” but to me the analogy sounds like it might be technical, cave, etc.

I think that’s exactly backwards. Being able to hover effortlessly is the end goal, not the starting point. Fundies is not an entry-level class, btw.

As others have mentioned, many divers have zero interest in that. And that’s ok. Not everyone has the same interest and goals. Some only have a passing interest in diving. As long as they’re not knocking over coral, I’m ok with that.

 

[MichaelMc]

Being able to hover effortlessly is the end goal, not the starting point.

Begin with the end in mind and spend time on it.

Existing vacation divers likely have low interest in going back and relearning.
New divers will likely do what you show them and use how you set up their weights and gear.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

Begin with the end in mind and spend time on it.

Existing divers likely have low interest in going back and relearning.
New divers will likely do what you show them.

Yes, but most new divers are in rental gear. That’s a one size fits most BCD with no trim pockets and all the weight at the waist. That BC also can’t be customized because they don’t own it.

Look, you’re preaching to the choir. I would love for new divers to be highly skilled, but frankly being in trim is a low priority given that most new divers are borderline unsafe. Once they’re no longer at risk of killing themselves, we can work on the trim.

 

[MichaelMc]

Yes, but most new divers are in rental gear. That’s a one size fits most BCD with no trim pockets and all the weight at the waist. That BC also can’t be customized because they don’t own it.

Look, you’re preaching to the choir. I would love for new divers to be highly skilled, but frankly being in trim is a low priority given that most new divers are borderline unsafe. Once they’re no longer at risk of killing themselves, we can work on the trim.

Yet Padi CW4 says:
"With a buddy, perform a weight check and adjust for proper weighing and trim."

Sounds like a standards violation if they are not doing that. The shop or instructor using inadequately prepared gear doesn't seem a valid excuse.

CW1 says:
"Put on and adjust ... weights with assistance...."
Which seems a good time for the instructor to get the weight distribution balanced for trim.

(Lightly edited to be more gear inclusive.)