Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[boulderjohn]

no way you can do skills neutral bouyant with less than 4 open water dives.

Are you saying that those of us who have students doing skills neutrally buoyant in the pool are hallucinating?

Or are you just talking about what you see when you teach and taking a guess as to what we see when we teach?

BTW, in the article we had published in the PADI professional journal, Karl Shreeves of PADI was heavily involved in the final editing. He was the one that inserted the part that it is OK to introduce the skills in the pool while on the knees, as long as you transition quickly, preferably in the same pool session, to doing it in a diving posture. I spoke about this with LeRoy Wickham of the PADI isntructional staff recently, and he said studenst should be doing skills in mid water by the last couple CW dives. Are you saying those representatives of the PADI staff are wrong, too?

 

[The Chairman]

BTW, in the article we had published in the PADI professional journal,

In my estimation, this was a huge step in the right direction. I just took the next logical step by eliminating kneeling altogether in my own teaching.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

When I was 14 my instructor told us on dive (x) while we were doing skills that the assistant would shut off our air... Prior to the dive the valves were mostly closed so that when they shut the air off we wouldnt notice... it must have happened to me shortly before I had to remove my mask and perform regulator recovery skills. because as soon as I put my mask back on cleared it and wanted to take a breathe I realized that there was no air. fortunately for me we had practiced vertical ESA's prior to this. I can tell you the value of the skill was never forgotten. I fear some students who have been taught to do this horizontally, in the event of a real life scenario may duplicate their training. As you said Pete students emulate what the instructors do, teach them to do it horizontally and they just might in an out of air scenario.

 

[mala]

Are you saying that those of us who have students doing skills neutrally buoyant in the pool are hallucinating?

Or are you just talking about what you see when you teach and taking a guess as to what we see when we teach?

BTW, in the article we had published in the PADI professional journal, Karl Shreeves of PADI was heavily involved in the final editing. He was the one that inserted the part that it is OK to introduce the skills in the pool while on the knees, as long as you transition quickly, preferably in the same pool session, to doing it in a diving posture. I spoke about this with LeRoy Wickham of the PADI isntructional staff recently, and he said studenst should be doing skills in mid water by the last couple CW dives. Are you saying those representatives of the PADI staff are wrong, too?

tell you what john.
ill give you $100 every time a student can take off the bcd and replace midwater in a pool before cw 4 .
you give me $100 everytime they touch bottom.

how does that sound?

 

[boulderjohn]

tell you what john.
ill give you $100 every time a student can take off the bcd and replace midwater in a pool before cw 4 .
you give me $100 everytime they touch bottom.

how does that sound?

It is part of CW #5. Why are you putting that restriction on me? In your post you said, "no way you can do skills neutral bouyant with less than 4 open water dives." Now you are suddenly leaping to half way through the confined water portion of instruction.

Because doing the skills neutrally is not a standard, I don't require it. That is how I demonstrate it, and I tell them that is how I prefer it. I would say about 80% do it in mid water. Yes, they do graze the bottom sometime, but that is hard to avoid in a pool with a limited amount of distance between the floor and surface.

Here is how we progress"

In CW #1, all skills are done lying prone, as horizontal as possible, with enough air int he BCD so that they are not flat on the ground and their breathing influences their depth. Their feet and maybe their knees are making light contact with the floor. I try to get them properly weighted, although they have not done a formal weight check yet.

In CW#2, the mask skills are done the same way. Then we swim about, getting the feel of swimming neutrally. I do the air depletion with them neutral, although they will again touch the floor lightly in most cases.

In CW #3, We start in what they are used to--the "instructional position" for the buoyancy exercise that used to be called the fin pivot. They have really gotten good at it by then, and the first part of the exercise is completed almost immediately, with no need for me to demonstrate anything. I then demo doing it orally. We do the air depletion/alternate air swim neutrally, although the awkwardness of this swim means they will often graze the bottom as they go.

By this time, there has never been a time that students have been anchored on the bottom. They have never been on their knees.

When we descend for CW #4, students stop before they reach the bottom and do the hover. We do the no mask swim/mask replacement neutrally. I tell them they can touch the bottom as they do it if they wish, but almost all students stay in mid water. I tell them that if they remove their masks along a wall in 400 feet of water in Cozumel, they won't be on the bottom, and they should learn to do it in mid water.

In CW #5, I demo both the weight belt and scuba unit skills in mid water, and about 80% of the students do it that way.

All of this is long before they have done 4 open water dives.

 

[Zen Diving Inc.]

tell you what john.
ill give you $100 every time a student can take off the bcd and replace midwater in a pool before cw 4 .
you give me $100 everytime they touch bottom.

how does that sound?

Can I play? I'm in and I tell you what, you give me 100.00 every time they do it with out touching bottom and I'll give you 5000.00 the first time they touch bottom no strings attached! 12 ft deep pool.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am certain John is a far better instructor than I am and you should learn from someone you feel comfortable with. We might disagree on this, but that does not make him a "bad instructor" in my book. I can't tell you how he feels about me but in the end that will have no impact on how I teach.

For those who have tired of the conversation, please click here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/subscription.php?do=removesubscription&t=440777 You don't have to follow it any further.

If any of my relatives or close friends wanted to take scuba classes in Pete's area, I would heartily recommend him, and I feel they would get excellent instruction.

If you read carefully, you will see that we actually agree on everything except the open water CESA. My frustration in this thread has been with the misdirections that make it seem otherwise.

 

[The Chairman]

I think it's important that we delineate between not kneeling and not touching the bottom. I have never claimed that my students never touch the bottom... only that they aren't allowed to rest, stand or kneel on the bottom. That being said, if your student really understands buoyancy, then remaining neutral while doing a BC doff and don is a piece of cake: yummy crumb cake at that. The student merely needs to identify if they are the cork or the anchor. Then it's merely a matter of remaining horizontal and keeping the anchor on top of the cork. If the student is wearing the weights then they need to stay on top. If the weights are integrated with the BC then the student needs to remain under the BC. But, buoyancy and trim must be mastered BEFORE this happens. It's amazing how much more smooth this is than having the students do this exercise on the bottom of the pool where they often resemble a monkey trying to hump a football.

Do my students ever touch the bottom? Sure: one finger at a time, until they finally get the hang of being neutral. It's introduced as a crutch and it's really how they should dive. By the time they get to doing their BC doff and dons, they usually are pretty good at not touching the bottom.

 

[Thalassamania]

Since we work for, and accomplish, not touching the bottom (or the sides, or surfacing except as required) and performing all exercises to that rule by the end of the class, I assumed you were doing the same thing ... I did not realize that all you were talking about was not kneeling.

By the way, still waiting.

 

[DCBC]

So, for a synopsis... on questions #1 and #2, you did not directly answer the question. While I am not surprised, I guess we can assume that you feel that either it's OK for instructors to set a bad example or that you feel kneeling is just fine and dandy in some circumstances.

You just don't get it do you?

On questions #3, #4 and #5, again to our complete non-surprise there is no definitive answer. That being said, all of my student's skills done on Scuba, including doff and don, are done mid water without touching the bottom.

Perhaps you have a comprehension problem... Regarding Doff and Don, I have the students do this in the traditional way. They go to the bottom, leave all their equipment, surface, go down to the bottom and put it all on. I'd like to see how you do that in mid-water. LOL

On questions #6 and #7, a bit better, but you still failed to either agree or disagree with the premise. You have cited some anecdotal evidence but have not produced the study(ies) requested for the yo-yo dives. FWIW, give us the number, and actual profiles of the yo-yo dives. Did they consist of a single or multiple instances of ascent/redescent?

You obviously haven't read the information provided. At the same time, you fail to produce anything whatsoever to support your position. Amazing....

On question #8, while you still don't give a direct answer your indirect answer states that you are only going on your feelings. There is no study that we know of that suggests that a vertical CESA is superior to a horizontal CESA.

I've answered your quiz and you don't even have the courtesy to address the specific points I've made. Perhaps you could start by answering my question: "How can an Instructor test a student's ability to ascend at a safe rate during a CESA if this is being undertaken horizontally?" Statistics were presented, which you also have also chosen to ignore. As John has stated "What has been cited instead is how teaching horizontal CESAs violates critical teaching concepts." You still don't get it do you?

On question #9, you know of none, I know of at least a half dozen.

Then it should be easy for you to provide proof that they exist.