Tasered over speeding ticket

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Theres a time to argue, and its not on a dangerous highway. This kid is trying to tell the cop what the law is. I'm listening to the kid's circular logic, and its pretty common among people with a certain personality type.

But I think it all boils down to this- Bad things happen when you don't respect authority.
 
I normally don't post to these types of threads, but having formally worked in LE and currently an instructor for LE agencies while at the same time firmly opposed to tasers, I can't resist the urge.

Yes, the kid was arguing, that's going to happen, it happens just about every day in the life of a LE officer. Most officers will listen to this arguing, explain as best they can what is going on, eventually get the signature from the guy, and move on. Some will threaten to arrest the guy for not signing it, get the signature and move on. Some will actually arrest the guy.

Now, the taser serves a purpose, it is great for handling situations where physical confrontation may result in serious injury or death of the officer or the suspect (yes, part of an officer's job is to protect the suspect from death or injury whenever possible). It was not, I say again NOT, designed for an officer to use in a situation like this, especially considering the number of inadvertant deaths that have been caused by tasers. The taser should only be used in a situation where the officer feels it is justified to potentially kill someone. Is it worth killing a young father in front of his wife because he wouldn't sign a speeding ticket? But, as the old saying goes, if you give someone a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Of course, it should also be noted it would have never even made it to that level if the officer in this situation had any communication skills at all.

I would also like to point out the part of the video where the officer can be heard talking with another officer, saying something about the suspect "taking a ride on the taser" and then saying to the suspect "painful, isn't it?" Yeah, good job, stand there and taunt the guy. I don't know how many guys (and even a couple of women) I have kicked out of my classes for stuff like this. Joking about "cracking skulls" and that sort of thing. I have no patience for that attitude. A police officer is there to protect and serve, not to maim and kill.



But I think it all boils down to this- Bad things happen when you don't respect authority.

"Respect my authority or I'll shock the hell out of you" is not one of the principles upon which America was founded.

Again, I'm sorry, I don't usually post to these threads, but this is one of those topics......
 
Is it worth killing a young father in front of his wife because he wouldn't sign a speeding ticket?

Is it worth being killed in front of your wife and child because you need to argue with an officer?

You did make some good points but I have to go back to another incident where a guy beat a lady officer into unconsciousness where she suffered major facial trauma that required numerous facial reconstruction surgeries and prevented her from coming back to work. This all happened as the suspects daughter screamed for her dad to stop. Officers don't know what someone is thinking or capable of.

When the officer says turn around and put you hand behind your back and the guy walks away then he is completely justified in using the tazer. It was already pointed at him when he said this and then repeated "turn around and put your hands behind your back. What the hell did he think would happen as he continued to walk away?

Then his wife who was very upset (justifiably) came running out of the vehicle. (could have had a weapon). He ordered her back in the vehicle. She said No and he ordered again. She went back into the vehicle as she was told but then came running out again. (Could have gone back to get a weapon) and the officer had to tell her to get back in the vehicle again. She's lucky she didn't get tazed. Neither one of them seem to want to listen to a police officer.
JK
 
Then his wife who was very upset (justifiably) came running out of the vehicle. (could have had a weapon). He ordered her back in the vehicle. She said No and he ordered again. She went back into the vehicle as she was told but then came running out again. (Could have gone back to get a weapon) and the officer had to tell her to get back in the vehicle again. She's lucky she didn't get tazed. Neither one of them seem to want to listen to a police officer.
JK

And if she did have a weapon and had gunned down the cop for tasing her husband, I guess the cop's widow could have asked herself "was it worth getting killed in the line of duty to arrest a driver over a speeding ticket?".
 
For those of you who are not defending the officer's actions, what should the officer have done? Let him return to the car? Would it change your opinion if the officer did a textbook stop and then the driver tried returning to his car?
 
For those of you who are not defending the officer's actions, what should the officer have done? Let him return to the car? Would it change your opinion if the officer did a textbook stop and then the driver tried returning to his car?
You are missing the point that what occurred was preventable had the officer utilzed better judgment and people skills. On the jerk-o-meter the speeder is very low on the scale, and if an officer can not handle that without tazing someone, I fear for him as well as the public.

Also, when he whipped out the tazer over this issue, he was essentially placing himself in the position of either committing himself to this course of action if his verbal demands were not met or looking stupid when the guy walked off. A smart officer is not going to do that - you never threaten to do something you are not fully willing and justified to carry out. He was a long way away from having to pull out a tazer in this situation even if he felt an arrest was warranted. Which brings us to appropriate use of officer discretion.

He made a mistake in deciding to arresting he guy at that point. If the suspect still refused to sign the ticket even after a private chat in or near the partol car, so what? The signed promise to appear means little - the summons on the ticket is still a summons and if the guy no showed, he's found guilty by default and gets mailed a letter to that effect with instructions to pay the fine. More likely the guy would have cooled off and mailed a check anyway prior to court.

So..best case, he speaks with the suspect in a controlled setting (patrol car), and the suspect signs the ticket.

Intermediate case, he refuses to sign the ticket but pays the fine or shows up in court to contest the ticket.

Worst case, he refuses to sign the ticket, fails to appear, fails to pay the fine and a bench warrant is issued and he goes to jail on the outstandiong warrant the next time he is stopped.

Nothing in the "worst case" scenario justifies the use of a tazer as nothing in the worst case scenario is that bad nor does it present a danger to the public.

But...the possible scenarios changed as the officer badly mishandled the situation, let his ego get involved and escalated the situation by deciding to make an arrest for what amounts to "contempt of cop". His decision then escalted the stakes for all involved and the officer further aggravated this by pulling out a tazer to make the the arrest. The suspect in turn, rather than cowering in fear, decided the officer was a few fries short of a happy meal for making this big a deal over a disagreement over a speeding ticket, and attempted to return to his vehicle. (although it would have been interesting to see what he would have done when he got there - I doubt he would have driven off.)

So the tazer got used. But regardless of how stupid the suspect was, the tazer got used because the officer lost control of the situation and relied on what is in my opinion a potentially dangerous and excessive use of force to salvage the situation. The officer has a public trust position that carries a great deal of responsibility and encountering a suspect who may be unhappy, argumentive, and uncooperative (but who is also non-violent, not wanted on any warrants, and is charged with nothing more than speeding) is par for the course and is by no means justification to use a tazer. If it were the average officer would be tazing a couple people per day.

An officer's job goes beyond enforcing the law, it also involves maintaining order and serving the interests of justice and the public as a whole. In my opinion, this officer just did not demonstrate that he has what it takes to meet those difficult demands.
 
You are missing the point that what occurred was preventable had the officer utilzed better judgment and people skills.
But regardless of how stupid the suspect was, the tazer got used because the officer lost control of the situation and relied on what is in my opinion a potentially dangerous and excessive use of force to salvage the situation.

I get your point but I still disagree. I agree that the situation escalated to the point that it did in part because of the officer's handling of the situation. Should the officer be as courteous as possible? Absolutely. Does an officer need to have "thicker skin" than the average person? Sure. But the driver was clearly out of line well. Now, because this officer didn't handle the situation as he probably should have, should that prevent him from reacting to a potentially threatening situation as any other officer would when a suspect returns to their car against instruction? I think not. I'll grant that the driver was only pulled over for speeding and that he didn't have any outstanding warrants, but that does not foreclose the possibility that he could still want to hurt the officer. At the point when the officer pulled out the taser and tried to place him under arrest the driver should have complied, but he didn't. You see the situation as mainly a contempt of cop / "ego" situation. While I see that issue in the video, of greater importance/weight to me is the possibility that the driver could be returning to his car for a weapon.
 
OTOH, the guy and his wife will probably be getting a nice new house and the kid will be going to a really nice college, all for free.


Yeah and guess who will be paying for all that?

You guessed it!

The taxpayers of Utah.... NOT that cop or his department.
 
The guy was definitely an idiot, and I'm willing to bet he gets nada out of it. The consequences of hesitation on the part of an officer can be high. Just watch this video from Mckinney, Texas and see what can happen....

Officer Attacked


With all due respect to you, your link has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's video link and is not at all a good comparison.

White guy in a car on the highway caught for speeding as opposed to a black man coming out of a gated section 8 housing development. Both should be handled differently regardless of what race card of prejudice you may call later.
 
Is it worth being killed in front of your wife and child because you need to argue with an officer?

You did make some good points but I have to go back to another incident where a guy beat a lady officer into unconsciousness where she suffered major facial trauma that required numerous facial reconstruction surgeries and prevented her from coming back to work. This all happened as the suspects daughter screamed for her dad to stop. Officers don't know what someone is thinking or capable of.

When the officer says turn around and put you hand behind your back and the guy walks away then he is completely justified in using the tazer. It was already pointed at him when he said this and then repeated "turn around and put your hands behind your back. What the hell did he think would happen as he continued to walk away?

Then his wife who was very upset (justifiably) came running out of the vehicle. (could have had a weapon). He ordered her back in the vehicle. She said No and he ordered again. She went back into the vehicle as she was told but then came running out again. (Could have gone back to get a weapon) and the officer had to tell her to get back in the vehicle again. She's lucky she didn't get tazed. Neither one of them seem to want to listen to a police officer.
JK

As has been pointed out, this is all the result of a police officer's failure to communicate clearly. Even when it got to the point where the officer decided to arrest the guy, all he said was "hop out of the car". Generally speaking, when an officer is going to arrest someone, they will be very clear in their instructions. "Sir, keep your hands where I can see the, slowly step out of the vehicle, and place your hands on the hood" or something to that effect would have prevented a situation where you have a guy out of the car, walking down the highway, thinking he's going to look at the sign.

Then, once they are out of the car, it is roughly 11 seconds from when the officer sets down his clipboard to when he tasers the guy. As the guy had, as of that point, not done anything at all to indicate he was a physical threat to the officer, there was no need for the taser to be out of the officer's holster at all. The immediate drawing of the taser is what caused the guy to start walking away from the officer (flight response to danger perhaps?) thus escalating the situation.

As for tasering the wife. Wow, if you think people are pissed now, throw a video of a young, pregnant woman getting tasered on Youtube and see what happens. I think most officers would probably take a couple slaps to the face before they'd be dumb enough to taser a young mother-to-be.



I get your point but I still disagree. I agree that the situation escalated to the point that it did in part because of the officer's handling of the situation. Should the officer be as courteous as possible? Absolutely. Does an officer need to have "thicker skin" than the average person? Sure. But the driver was clearly out of line well. Now, because this officer didn't handle the situation as he probably should have, should that prevent him from reacting to a potentially threatening situation as any other officer would when a suspect returns to their car against instruction? I think not. I'll grant that the driver was only pulled over for speeding and that he didn't have any outstanding warrants, but that does not foreclose the possibility that he could still want to hurt the officer. At the point when the officer pulled out the taser and tried to place him under arrest the driver should have complied, but he didn't. You see the situation as mainly a contempt of cop / "ego" situation. While I see that issue in the video, of greater importance/weight to me is the possibility that the driver could be returning to his car for a weapon.

Again, the officer is the one who escalated the situation by first not giving the guy clear instructions when he told him to exit the vehicle and then by drawing the taser almost immediatly. There was no need for that level of force. Then, not once did he say "stop or I'll taser you". At that point the driver is still trying to remove himself from what he sees as a dangerous situation. And I don't blame him. That officer was clearly irrational and pointing a weapon at the driver.


I see this issue from a trainer's viewpoint where this officer did everything wrong from the first frustrated sigh when the driver asked why he was pulled over to the improper deployment of his taser.

And yes, I know the state of Utah has said their investigation found the trooper acted properly, but that's 100% a CYA move because they know they're going to get sued.
 
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