Tank buoyancy characteristics

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In general, it makes sense for a cold water diver to dive a negatively bouyant tank given that with a dry suit or thick wet suit, he or she will need to add lead anyway to acheive neutral bouyancy. And in most cases the resulting total weight is significantly less.

For example an X7-100 weighs 33 lbs but is 2.5 lbs negative when empty compared to an AL 80 that weighs 31 lbs and is 4.4 lbs positive when empty. So you gain 2 lbs in tank weight (but another 20 cu ft in capacity in what is a smaller package) but you can take 6.9 lbs off the weight belt compared to what you would need with an AL80 to be neutral at the end of the dive so the net loss of total weight you lug up the ladder is 5 lbs.

On the other hand, for a warm water diver things can quickly get out of hand. A Faber HP 80 for example is 7.25 lbs negative when empty so unless you currently require 11.5 lbs of lead to be neutral at the end of a dive with an AL80 and your warm water exposure suit, you would be badly overweighted with an HP 80. This would impact your ability to precisly control bouyancy as the larger bubble is harder to manage and it could also make an ascent diffilcult if your BC were to fail (if for example the inflator assembly broke off). This is particularly true early in the dive when the Faber HP 80 would be 13.25 lbs negative.

When you consider doubles, things quickly get worse by a factor of 2 plus the weight of the manifold and bands. Given the potential to dive dry in the winter and to dive in a 3mm in the summer, I tend to prefer tanks that are fairly close to neutral when empty. In the winter with a pair of X7-100's (-5 lbs empty), I will need a SS plate (- 6 lbs) and a v-weight (-8 lbs) to sink a well insulated dry suit, but in the summer I am not over weighted in a 3mm wet suit with an AL back plate (- 2 lbs) and no v-weight.

In comparison AL 80's would require the 8 lb v-weight in the summer as well and would require another 8 lbs of weight in the winter with a dry suit - an awful lot of lead. At the other extreme, a very negative tank like a Faber HP 80 or HP or HP 100 would let me take off 10 lbs in the winter, but would leave me 10 lbs over weighted in a 3mm in the summer - meaning that if my wing failed early in the dive, I would be 24 lbs negative - a lot of weight to swim up from the bottom.

So my advice is to consider the diving you will be doing as well as the suit related bouyancy and weight requirements and then select your tank(s) as part of the overall system. The nice part is that there is enough variety in tank capacity and bouyany to find one that will meet your needs almost perfectly.
 
Eurocylinders AG has no any information about their tanks buoyancy at the website.
I emailed them with inquiry and they provided me with the table below(Note, that the buoyancy is given in Kg (not pounds). 1kg is about 2.2lb):

That chart is wrong. Sea water is only about 2.5% more dense than fresh water.
In order for there to be that much difference between fresh water and salt water buoyancy, the full tank would have to weigh about 49.2kg, or about 108 pounds.

I don't know about you, but when I see one mistake in a chart, I don't believe the rest.
 
Question

Using the (made up) numbers 30.0 pounds / -4.00 / +4.00 in seawater

Taking the -4.00 at a PSI of 3000 and +4.00 at a psi of 100 ?
At what point in PSI are you at 0.0 - 1500?
Or is there more to it then a 1 to 1 relationship?
 
0 pounds / -4.00 / +4.00 in seawater

Taking the -4.00 at a PSI of 3000 and +4.00 at a psi of 100 ?
At what point in PSI are you at 0.0 - 1500?
Or is there more to it then a 1 to 1 relationship?
Pretty close to 1500psi. The amount of an ideal gas in a tank is linearly proportional to the pressure (or to use your words "1 to 1 relationship"). For calculating buoyancy you can assume that air behaves the same way as an ideal gas.

Air follows this ideal gas equation to within a couple of percent up to 3000psi/207 bar. As you get up towards 300bar/4500psi range the deviation from 1 to 1 relationship gets bigger, but is still just 3 or 4%. The deviation from ideal is such that at 300bar you have a few percent less air in the tank than you would calculate by assuming by just multiplying the internal volume by the number of atmospheres of pressure.
 
Idealy, you don't want a tank rig to be more negative near empty than the weight of your weight belt to make you neutral without tanks but all the rest of the gear.
 
That chart is wrong. Sea water is only about 2.5% more dense than fresh water.
In order for there to be that much difference between fresh water and salt water buoyancy, the full tank would have to weigh about 49.2kg, or about 108 pounds.

I don't know about you, but when I see one mistake in a chart, I don't believe the rest.

Yes, you are right. The chart is wrong in its seawater buoyancy characteristics. Just look more closely at the previous table - they apply 1.09 g/cm3(gram per cubic centimeter) for seawater density(Dichte Salzw. -A23 in the table) while it should be not more than 1.03 g/cm3. (1g/cm3 is fresh water density)

So if we use correct(1.025 g/cm3) data we shall receive for 12L 232bar tank:
weight / full / empty (lb)
28.66 / -6.83 / +0.59 in fresh water
28.66 / -6.08/ +1.34 in seawater


Since the table is in the Excel it was very easy to fix it. Here is the right one:

eurocylinderstc4.jpg


General formula for seawater:
O12=(B12+C12/B19)*B23-(C12+H12+I12) - full
Q12=(B12+C12/B19)*B23-(C12+H12) - empty
 
Which buoyancy characteristics are better? ...
weight / full / empty: 28.66 / -4.12 / +3.3 in seawater vs 33 / -10.0 / -2.5 in seawater. ... Tank is for cold water\drysuit diving. ... Is the more negative buoyancy of the tank the better? ... Could very negatively buoyant tank affect the trim (overturning diver on the back for example)?
'Better ' is, to a certain extent, a matter of opinion. I prefer a more negative tank (usually HP steel) for cold water, drysuit diving, because it takes weight off my belt, and puts it on my back. Some suggest that approach is problematic, if it reduces 'ditchable' weight to essentially nothing, and only the rig is left to ditch in the event of bouyancy failure. For single tank drysuit diving, I still need added weight so I do not believe this is a problem. If you are diving doubles, where even with slightly bouyant tanks you are negative at the beginning of a dive, that may be a challenge, as TS&M mentions. But, for single tank diving this should not be a problem. A more negative tank is VERY UNLIKELY to affect trim to the extent that you roll over on your back, particularly if you are wearing a weight belt, and the weight that is on it is oriented to the front.
 
look at the hp 100. steel tanks. there neutral to -3# when empty. pending on make and modl. with that alum you were looking at. 3.3 +. you just droped up to 6 lb of your weight belt. you can also use the extra air for your suit, and shooting bags.
 
The tank is going to change the same amount for a given size just depends if you want to add more lead or tank.
 
Vioch,
is there any way I can get that table in a printable version and in english?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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