Tank Boots, Boats and DIR

[do it easy]

This whole thread is turning into exacly what I hoped it wouldn't. Had I known that my comment (which was honestly innocently made - I didn't realize that so many Atlantic and Pacific ocean divers used steel doubles) would have stirred up so much "verbal silt", I wouldn't have posted it.

I think it's going great! The first step is to ask the question "Why?" but the next step is to weigh the answer. You've stepped up and given out the reasons for why you dive the configuration that you do, and that is much more insightful and helpful since not all of us have the oppurtunity to dive both coasts and all areas in between.

As long as people have opinions, there will be misquotes and generalizations. The real benefit is for divers who ask questions with an open mind, rather than asking questions just to get the answer that they want to hear.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

(message removed ... responded to in a subsequent post) ...

 

[WaterDawg]

Jason,

I think he means that if he is diving AL80s, he would need 14lbs to offset the buoyancy characteristics (probably via V-weight) and if that were the case, he'd rather that be 14lbs gained in cft of gas in larger steel tanks.

You got it Derek. Instead of non ditchable weight (Vweight, heave bp) that dosent do much for me, Id rather have weight (ST tanks) that allow me to carry more air.

 

[Jason B]

Thanks for clearing that up WaterDawg. I feel better now.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

NW Bob posted that JJ was wearing doubles. Someone sees here that JJ was diving steel and says "GUE must agree that 100%, steel tanks are a-okay for any ocean dives". The message is misconstrued.

Actually, what I would hope they get out of it would be that the cylinders you choose, just like the gas you use, should depend on the type of dive you are doing rather than some "standard" size cylinder.

Here's a description of a dive that ran out of our shop this past Sunday ... would like to see someone justify why AL80's would be suitable for this "open ocean" dive ...

A lot of you know 5th d divers have run cave line at the average depth of 100' around the entire western side of Elliott Bay . The south line we refer to as the Alki Express which last year at this time we pushed it to 10k . On Sunday the 12th , a fine group of divers gathered up for our longest attempt at running line. Our goal was to push past our 9k mark out into the 11k range running north on what we call the Wheaton Tollway .
Meeting at 6:30 a.m. surface manager for the event Kurt Kath began setting up the beach with help from Larry,Doug,Eric,Charles & Nikki . Set up dives started right away with the 6k set up team of Ray,Brett,& Chris departing at 7:20 to drop stages for the primary team . The 3k team of Lauryn & John left at 7:30 to set up the 3k drop . Jon Breazile & Steve Coffman installed the deco line from 70' to 20' on the south side of cove two . As the 3k & 6k teams returned to deco they were supported by Geof,Lamont, & Raul .
The 6k team had quite the challenge around 4k they repaired a line break and shortly thereafter Chris's scooter went down . Brett then towed him out to 6k made the stage drops and towed Dutty all the way back over 1 mile. Awesome!
At 9:15 the primary team of Walter,Joe Rad and I left for a three hour cruise . Leaving the I Beams we passed over mini mee,xmas tree,jack in the box and made our first stage drop at 3k, from there we passed Breazile's Breach,Peo's revenge,the fault lines up to the northern ridge and our next stage drop at 6k . Then proceed past Joe's Garage and the Krispy kremes arriving at our 9k stage drop . This is where we started laying new line . We know out this point we've rounded the channel marker to Elliot Bay and are heading towards Alki Beach . After laying 1200' & 800' reels we turned the dive at 75 minutes . Round trip was a tad over 4 miles with the use of 9 stage bottles and 6 gavin scooters plus deco bottles . Total run time was 191 minutes . Deco was uneventful with support from the triox provo team and Brett,Chris,Steve and Jon . It was a beautiful day for a robust dive and it couldn't be done without all the great support we had . Our hats our off to these guys it made things go really smooth . Everybody involved has shown just how valuable DIR & GUE training is.
fester

 

[Derek S]

I think it's going great! The first step is to ask the question "Why?" but the next step is to weigh the answer. You've stepped up and given out the reasons for why you dive the configuration that you do, and that is much more insightful and helpful since not all of us have the oppurtunity to dive both coasts and all areas in between.

As long as people have opinions, there will be misquotes and generalizations. The real benefit is for divers who ask questions with an open mind, rather than asking questions just to get the answer that they want to hear.

It is going great from the exchange of ideas standpoint, I just don't like giving the GUE/DIR naysayers any more cannon-fodder to point and say "see, they say they're all about conformity, but in reality, aren't."

I notice that most posts here go a little something like this:

A new (or inexperienced in the ways of GUE) diver asks a question. A few obviously anti-DIR or quasi (quasi meaning new)-DIR divers (I've been guilty - I admit it) give advice (or smart-alec remarks), and the originator of the thread either goes away disgusted, has a skewed view of GUE/DIR or worse yet, walks away with incorrect information.

I've obviously proven (even if only to myself) that while I know what I know, there is that much more that I don't know. To that end, I'm going to take a more "shut up and do some learning" approach. Unless someone addresses me specifically, or I have the answer that I'm 100% sure will not be different based on geographical location or other external forces, I'm going to shut up.

 

[Soggy]

As I've said before, I'll be at CaymanQuest in 10 more days (woo hoo!!) and I will make it a point to corral JJ and Bob and be sure to ask "why".

I think you've done a decent job summarizing Bob's arguments on the matter, having had several conversations with him personally about it myself (not on the Internet).

No one is attacking you here...many of us just feel that the whole concept of "steel doubles for open ocean dives are bad" is absurd.

 

[Derek S]

Actually, what I would hope they get out of it would be that the cylinders you choose, just like the gas you use, should depend on the type of dive you are doing rather than some "standard" size cylinder.

Here's a description of a dive that ran out of our shop this past Sunday ... would like to see someone justify why AL80's would be suitable for this "open ocean" dive ...

Bob -

Yet again, the Internet fails me. :14: I assumed that it was a given that a diver would chose the proper "tool" for the job and that the other divers with him/her would follow suit in order to be a cohesive team.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance because I don't do dives like the one described yet, but that being said, I don't see how AL80s would/would not be suitable for that dive. Since a number of stage/deco bottles were used, it could be argued that AL80s would be fine, just that more stage bottles would be needed. Again, I'm ignorant in this scope of diving, so I can't unequivocally say which would be the best tool for the dive.

 

[Derek S]

I think you've done a decent job summarizing Bob's arguments on the matter, having had several conversations with him personally about it myself (not on the Internet).

No one is attack you here...many of us just feel that the whole concept of "steel doubles for open ocean dives are bad" is absurd.

I don't feel attacked at all. :14: I just don't want my answers based on what I perceive to be correct from information I've gleaned to do more harm than good to the image of myself (I'm not vain, but I don't like to be considered stupid - well unless you ask the wife )/GUE/DIR/NEUE.

 

[Soggy]

Here's a description of a dive that ran out of our shop this past Sunday ... would like to see someone justify why AL80's would be suitable for this "open ocean" dive ...

What was the purpose of running the line in open water?