Tank Boots, Boats and DIR

[MXGratefulDiver]

So like I said, get an electronic membership to GUE, subscribe to the Quest list and search the archives, or e-mail JJ and ask him yourselves. If I don't see someone post anything definitive between now and next Saturday, I'll ask JJ when I see him at CaymanQuest.

JJ was out here teaching a Tech 2 class not too long ago. He taught the class wearing PST LP104 doubles. So was every student in his class ... and they were doing open ocean diving.

So perhaps it's legitimate to ask why some DIR folks are saying one thing, and the guy who created DIR is doing something else.

Or perhaps JJ was just doing "a stupid thing" ... :11:

... hmmmm ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RTodd]

JJ was out here teaching a Tech 2 class not too long ago. He taught the class wearing PST LP104 doubles. So was every student in his class ... and they were doing open ocean diving.

So perhaps it's legitimate to ask why some DIR folks are saying one thing, and the guy who created DIR is doing something else.

Or perhaps JJ was just doing "a stupid thing" ... :11:

... hmmmm ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Tech 2 class in drysuits with relatively high helium mixes. Probably wouldn't be my choice of tank for an open water dive but not really contradictory to what I have written on this depending on the individuals weighting requirements. Now, 104s pumped to 3500 with nitrox in open ocean where you start a dive with lots of extra gas weight you don't need. Not a very well balanced rig.

 

[Derek S]

JJ was out here teaching a Tech 2 class not too long ago. He taught the class wearing PST LP104 doubles. So was every student in his class ... and they were doing open ocean diving.

So perhaps it's legitimate to ask why some DIR folks are saying one thing, and the guy who created DIR is doing something else.

Or perhaps JJ was just doing "a stupid thing" ... :11:

... hmmmm ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob -

Please don't put words in my mouth. I've gone over everything I've typed in this thread and I'll be darned if I can find where I labeled anyone stupid for diving steel. I've already said that it isn't an absolute, just that it is an NEUE team standard that I agree with.

The problem again, is you get into generalizations. For those who have met JJ, you know that he is a very fit and needs little weight to offset his inherent buoyancy (which he probably has none). Like Bob Sherwood pointed out, now you have JJ wearing PST 104s. What about that cold water diver (let's use myself as an example), who isn't in the best of shape, takes what was said and misconstrues it, and comes out on an ocean/lake dive wearing PST 104s. If the proverbial "poop" hits the fan, I'm in big trouble, whereas JJ can probably swim those tanks to the surface if need be.

Again, it's not an absolute. Rather than sit here an postulate anymore, I'm choosing to get information from more reliable sources.

 

[Soggy]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I've gone over everything I've typed in this thread and I'll be darned if I can find where I labeled anyone stupid for diving steel.

You didn't, RTodd did.

 

[Soggy]

This is not directed *at* you, Derek...just replying to what you (and Bob) have said. I've had several 'discussions' with him about this subject and have yet to hear a single good reason why regarding this topic....his response on NEUE ended up, essentially, "because I said so." I like Bob and have a lot of respect for him, but (obviously) vehemently disagree with him on this topic. I also respect that your team standard is Al80s, though I don't see that you guys as a team are doing dives where doubles are even required at all. Since the NEUE team is also doing a whole lot of fresh water diving from what I have seen, Al80s might make more sense. I will admit that in fresh water, with those thanks full, I'm pretty overweighted. Salt...not so much.

For those who have met JJ, you know that he is a very fit and needs little weight to offset his inherent buoyancy (which he probably has none).

So he's even more overweighted than the rest of us wearing them. How is that better? Do you really think that, if he's that overweighted, even if he is capable of swimming them to the surface, that he would choose that over a more viable alternative, such as using a lift bag, or having his buddy assist? Especially if there was a decompression hang? Mind over muscle is the answer...mind over muscle.

Additionally, what circumstance can you conjure up where there would be a *complete* loss of buoyancy where you cannot keep any gas in your suit or wing at all?

 

[Jason B]

http://forum.5thd-x.com/viewtopic.php?t=1231&start=15

I think AG said it best here.



I dive AL80's and love them, they trim out fine. BUT I use 0 to 5lbs (depending on WETsuit and type of water). If I had to add 14lbs of non ditchable weight...dyh, Id rather that = more air.

Thanks for the link WaterDawg. Not sure what you mean by "If I had to add 14lbs of non ditchable weight...dyh, Id rather that = more air".

I know you aren't pumping your Al80's over 3000psi so how do you gain 14 "extra" pounds of weight by adding air? I'm sure I'm just taking something wrong here but I don't see it.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob -

Please don't put words in my mouth. I've gone over everything I've typed in this thread and I'll be darned if I can find where I labeled anyone stupid for diving steel. I've already said that it isn't an absolute, just that it is an NEUE team standard that I agree with.

Actually, I was quoting RTodd ...

The problem again, is you get into generalizations.

Actually, I was simply making an observation ... as an additional observation, I've taken classes with Brando and Joe T, and shared the beach with Sonya, Andrew, Mike Kane and Steve White. They all used steels ... and if not mistaken, they were all LP104's ... when teaching their respective classes.

This is what I call a generalization ... http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1567757&postcount=6 ... and I'm questioning the reasons behind the statement.

I dunno about you ... but every GUE instructor I've ever known has encouraged their students to ask "why" if they don't understand something. That's what I'm doing.

For those who have met JJ, you know that he is a very fit and needs little weight to offset his inherent buoyancy (which he probably has none). Like Bob Sherwood pointed out, now you have JJ wearing PST 104s. What about that cold water diver (let's use myself as an example), who isn't in the best of shape, takes what was said and misconstrues it, and comes out on an ocean/lake dive wearing PST 104s. If the proverbial "poop" hits the fan, I'm in big trouble, whereas JJ can probably swim those tanks to the surface if need be.

Again, it's not an absolute. Rather than sit here an postulate anymore, I'm choosing to get information from more reliable sources.

Well, that's your perogative .... my "relliable sources" come through the shop I work for ... which happens to be one of the better known DIR shops in the country. I don't need to go to the Internet to ask these questions, when I can discuss them with GUE instructors in person.

FWIW - we have been told that if you want to dive with SCRET (which I am not interested in doing, BTW), you will use LP104's. Like your own example, that's not based on some world-wide DIR decision ... it's based on team standardization, for all the reasons mentioned previously in this thread ... and, no doubt, a few that I haven't discussed with the SCRET team members I dive with.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Derek S]

This is not directed *at* you, Derek...just replying to what you (and Bob) have said. I've had several 'discussions' with him about this subject and have yet to hear a single good reason why regarding this topic....his response on NEUE ended up, essentially, "because I said so." I like Bob and have a lot of respect for him, but (obviously) vehemently disagree with him on this topic. I also respect that your team standard is Al80s, though I don't see that you guys as a team are doing dives where doubles are even required at all. Since the NEUE team is also doing a whole lot of fresh water diving from what I have seen, Al80s might make more sense. I will admit that in fresh water, with those thanks full, I'm pretty overweighted. Salt...not so much.

I've read the threads on NEUE as well as countless other boards. There are some compelling arguments for steel, I won't deny that.

I'm relatively new to the NEUE, so all of my dives with them so far have been fresh water dives. In truth, because of my work schedule and location, the logistics of making regular trips for NE Atlantic diving, it is almost better for me to travel to somewhere like NC or even cave country or the Keys. But that is a "me" issue, and not someone else's.

For the record, I want to state that I didn't post Bob Sherwood's reply in it's entirety. I didn't feel it was necessary, I figured that if anyone wanted to read it, they would just go to the NEUE site. One thing he did say (or at least as I interpreted it) that I carried though in my posts: that nothing is an absolute.

Now, that said, let's be reasonable. If someone dives different tanks, but is a really squared away diver, do we really want to alienate them??? NO WAY!!!

There are teams of divers that have made the choice to use 100's as a team. I believe that matching is better than not. Building the resources of a team utilizing standardizing is the concept that should be taken from this.

I have a pair of PST E-7 100s that I'm seriously considering also doubling up. I like the feel of them in the water, and they have better overall buoyancy characteristics than the AL80s do, but the NEUE team standard AL80s. I have sat with Bob personally and had more than a few conversations on this and the points he has brought up were very compelling.

Regardless, I agree with Sherwood that team resource matching is paramount.

So he's even more overweighted than the rest of us wearing them. How is that better? Do you really think that, if he's that overweighted, even if he is capable of swimming them to the surface, that he would choose that over a more viable alternative, such as using a lift bag, or having his buddy assist? Especially if there was a decompression hang? Mind over muscle is the answer...mind over muscle.

Additionally, what circumstance can you conjure up where there would be a *complete* loss of buoyancy where you cannot keep any gas in your suit or wing at all?

I'm not saying it's better. What I am saying is that given JJ's physical attributes, he is much better suited to handling a situation that may arise than I am because of my current physical attributes. I'm also saying that what Sherwood said could hold true. NW Bob posted that JJ was wearing doubles. Someone sees here that JJ was diving steel and says "GUE must agree that 100%, steel tanks are a-okay for any ocean dives". The message is misconstrued.

I can't conjure up a circumstance, but we do plan for worse-case contingencies, no?

 

[Derek S]

Thanks for the link WaterDawg. Not sure what you mean by "If I had to add 14lbs of non ditchable weight...dyh, Id rather that = more air".

I know you aren't pumping your Al80's over 3000psi so how do you gain 14 "extra" pounds of weight by adding air? I'm sure I'm just taking something wrong here but I don't see it.

Jason,

I think he means that if he is diving AL80s, he would need 14lbs to offset the buoyancy characteristics (probably via V-weight) and if that were the case, he'd rather that be 14lbs gained in cft of gas in larger steel tanks.

 

[Derek S]

Actually, I was quoting RTodd ...

Sorry Bob. I'm a writer (by training and by passion), so I tend to get sensitive when I feel I'm being misquoted.

This is what I call a generalization ... http://www.scubaboard.com/showpost.php?p=1567757&postcount=6 ... and I'm questioning the reasons behind the statement.

I dunno about you ... but every GUE instructor I've ever known has encouraged their students to ask "why" if they don't understand something. That's what I'm doing.

While it might have been a generalization, it is a viable solution to his question. I too agree that every student should always be asking "why". It is what sets us apart from the mindless masses who trample marine life as they stride off of cattle boats and spend untold piles of coin on the latest "whirly-gigs" the industry has decided to foist upon them.

Well, that's your perogative .... my "relliable sources" come through the shop I work for ... which happens to be one of the better known DIR shops in the country. I don't need to go to the Internet to ask these questions, when I can discuss them with GUE instructors in person.

FWIW - we have been told that if you want to dive with SCRET (which I am not interested in doing, BTW), you will use LP104's. Like your own example, that's not based on some world-wide DIR decision ... it's based on team standardization, for all the reasons mentioned previously in this thread ... and, no doubt, a few that I haven't discussed with the SCRET team members I dive with.

As I said in my response to Aaron, I have discussed this at length personally with Bob Sherwood. I'm not basing it solely on "something I read on the Internet."

Again, in my response to Aaron, I believe in team matching. I'm a pretty much a strictly fresh water diver (as of right now), so big steel doubles don't fit in with my plans.

This whole thread is turning into exacly what I hoped it wouldn't. Had I known that my comment (which was honestly innocently made - I didn't realize that so many Atlantic and Pacific ocean divers used steel doubles) would have stirred up so much "verbal silt", I wouldn't have posted it.

As I've said before, I'll be at CaymanQuest in 10 more days (woo hoo!!) and I will make it a point to corral JJ and Bob and be sure to ask "why".