Talk me *OUT* of a BP/W setup

[cool_hardware52]

The vast majority of my customers end up with a single plate, and a single wing.

With a proper understanding of how to select plate size, plate material (Negative Stainless Steel vs much less negative aluminum or Kydex) and proper wing selection for the range of conditions most divers encounter it's both reasonable and possible to have a single set of gear with minimum compromises. A realistic definition of actual conditions you will dive in helps. The "some day I will dive the Doria" when you are picking out your first BP&W can distort the selection process.

If your range of applications is wide, i.e. cold water diving at home in Alaska with trips to the south pacific, and need to dive buoyant tanks *and* negative steels, and small volume doubles and pairs of 104's or E8-130's a single choice of plate and wing isn't going to do the job.

The commonality between the rigs remains a benefit, i.e. drings where you expect them, same "manual of arms" to don and ditch etc. of course remains, and that is not insignificant.

Often, but not always, the core elements, the plate and harness, can be used across quite a range, but keep in mind that once you jump off into the world of tech (assuming you do) the costs rise exponentially, one or more drysuits, several sets of undergarments. Helium, deco and stage bottles (and the associated regs) 2-6 sets of doubles so you can have the right mix, a $1200 can light, Trimix computer, scooter, training, (the divorce attorney ) , a booster, boat rides, etc. etc. etc. the cost of a couple more plates. harnesses and wings is a tiny part of the deal.

I'd be happy to walk you through the process and help you understand what info is (and what is not) required to select the right components from what can be a bewildering array of choices.

In the interests of full disclosure I design, manufacture and sell BP&W's

I prefer to do so via a phone call, as that allows me to better explain the rational behind the recommendations I make.

Tobin

626-799-5078 9-5 California time, most week days.

 

[filmguy123]

Ok, ok. Here's some questions and a summary of what I am hearing:

QUESTIONS:

Break this down for me in "minutes" of setup time, plus ideal gear AND cost? Be realistic and assume I'm a little slower than you, and only dive 50-60 dives a year. Required Setup time for each + ideal gear/cost when swapping parts (ie different BP or W):

1. I've been diving cold freshwater in Oregon lakes with a 7mm wetsuit and singles, but need to switch to a cold saltwater deep dive in drysuit with doubles.
2. I've been diving cold saltwater in Puget sound with a drysuit and DOUBLES, but now want to switch to board shorts and a single for a warm water tropical dive in Bonaire.
3. I've been diving tropical warm water in Bonaire, and now will go to Alaska fresh lake cold water where I will dive deep fresh coldwater in drysuit + doubles.

How many minutes will each task take for a non-pro, and what gear ideally shall I swap out (multiple backplates, STA, different wings, etc.?)

My next question relates to being REALISTIC about what I want to invest in for my setup. There's a lot of talk about BP/W works for everything! It's cheap! But as I was starting to gather and one post pointed out, less talk about what sort of gear investment I really need to make it work for these scenarios.

Very true on the "someday I will dive the Doria" scenario - no need to plan for future contingencies. But my most common scenarios, and those which I predict immediately and all within the next 18 months include:

Cold freshwater and cold saltwater, in both drysuit and wetsuit, in both singles and doubles. Puget sound, Crater Lake, Alaska.
Warm and mid tropics: Maui, Bonaire, Puerto Vallarta, Indonesia, Thailand

Even split between them all, and even split between local and travel. I fully anticipate hitting all of these in the next 18 months or so.

^^
REALISTIC KIT NEEDS FOR THIS?

Do I need multiple size wings? Say a 30 for Bonaire warm, and a 40 for drysuit doubles? I don't mean "you could maybe sort of technically squeeze by on a 30 for both" because let's be real, guys who dive BP/W don't strike me as the type to be cool with "maybe sorta technically squeezing by"?

Do I need multiple backplates? One setup for singles, one setup for doubles, and a lighter weight and higher weight option?

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Also, this has been vague, but talk to me more about weight ditching. I really don't understand how this is NOT necessary given that its such a key part of safety training. If, God forbid, something happen and I am low on air where it becomes a choice of breathing VS properly inflating my BC/Wing to get to the surface, ditching weights is critical. The BP seems to make this quite difficult when the majority of your weight is "built in" to your rig? Please help explain to me how this truly not a downside. To be clear, I fully understand the upside that it is much more streamlined with better, more even weight distribution, etc. I do appreciate that, but I'm talking here on why ditching weights is somehow completely unnecessary with this setup even in unplanned, unusual emergency scenarios. As for where is my buddy? My buddy is dead. They just died. Sad day. Now I'm alone, in the red on air, and 100 feet under. Talk to me.

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Lastly (for now, HA!), while you are all doing a great job of selling me on this BP/W setup (really, you are) this WAS a talk me OUT of it thread! So for grins, lets say I'm a 50-60 a year diver, half local, half vacation, and I want something low maintanence, ubiquitious, and minimal hassle and don't want to tinker with changing setups to get the ideal fit constantly. The Zeagle Covert BC. I have to admit, this seems like a pretty great option that could get me 80% of the BP/W setup advantages with none of the gear swapping, etc. and would work for all the different cold and warm water scenarios:

Amazon.com : Zeagle Covert BC W/Inflator, Hose and RE Valve : Sports & Outdoors

If I understand correctly, a BP/W may give me a little better trim and streamlining, and woud also allow me to dive doubles and set me up better for a future in tec diving + GUE fundamentals? But the Zeagle here would be a pretty killer "one size fits all" easy solution?

(Don't take that the wrong way, I know you all love the BP/W, and to be clear, I am leaning toward the BP/W. But there is still a draw to something as plug'n'play as the Zeagle even if it means taking a 20% hit in streamlining and trim control).

SO, hit me!

 

[Lorenzoid]

@filmguy, I suggest taking Tobin up on his offer to talk you through this, as he's done that with many of us here on SB who had similar questions about accommodating the different types of diving we do or are likely to do. Give him a call. The phone is so much easier.

 

[filmguy123]

I will definitely do that! Wrote his number down already. With work and evening commitments it will be a couple days before I can do so, so hoping to learn as much as I can before then... hoping that will make for better informed questions when we do connect

 

[CuzzA]

Cold freshwater and cold saltwater, in both drysuit and wetsuit, in both singles and doubles. Puget sound, Crater Lake, Alaska.
Warm and mid tropics: Maui, Bonaire, Puerto Vallarta, Indonesia, Thailand

Even split between them all, and even split between local and travel. I fully anticipate hitting all of these in the next 18 months or so.

I'll make this easy for you... With the amount money for diving, travel and training it appears you are going to spend for the above, it would appear you have some discretionary funds.

I recommend you buy the Dive Rite HunterPac AND a BP/W from Tobin. Problem solved. You'll have one of the best back inflate BCD's out there that is very similar to a BP/W that will be your travel, warm/cooler water singles rig and the BP/W will be your cold water/technical doubles rig.

No reason you can't have more than one rig and since they are almost identical in configuration, muscle memory will be the same for both.

 

[filmguy123]

I do like no compromise solutions, though I should be clear - my discretionary funds arent actually THAT high.

I am lucky to have friends with a free place to stay in Bonaire, Puerto Vallarta, and Alaska. I shoot weddings where Maui is a common destination. For documentary video work, I get pulled into Indo/Thailand for sex trafficking cases. So most of the reason I can get do all those is hooks up for free lodging, and/or free travel, and my credit card mileage trickery I also have some insurance money from a motorcycle crash that I can put towards initial scuba gear as I am looking at selling the bike.

So, no, I unfortunately am not loaded enough to do just go buy it all - if I was, I wouldn't be doing so much research now!!!

 

[Caveeagle]

Definitely talk with the experts, but you might want to put your credit cards on a 24hr hold before you make the call.

Sure there are optimal types of BP and wings for each type of diving you mentioned. I suspect, you can find a good middle of the road setup that you can use. especially if you are diving a drysuit in the cold waters. (that's your redundant lift).

I suspect you will end up starting with an aluminum plate and a 30-32# wing. That's should be workable for a single tank Al80 and also serve you will for a larger steel tank.

 

[Altamira]

At the risk of getting hammered by the bp/w proponents, I'll give you a couple of negatives that no one has brought up. First, If you like to ride high out of the water while waiting for the boat to pick you up, especially in choppy seas, you may not be happy with a bp/w or a back inflate bcd. With either of those bcd types you will ride lower in the water, and I pretty much float on my back, somewhat like sitting in a recliner. If you fully inflate the bp/w or back inflate bcd like you would a jacket bcd when at the surface, you will likely find it pushes you face forward in the water (I did until I figured out the right amount of air needed). When the water is rough though, floating in a back inflate type bcd is not the most comfortable way to wait for a boat (in my opinion). My wife dives the Scubapro Go, a very light weight jacket bcd, and she would not be one bit happy in a bp/w or back inflate and not being as high out of the water as possible. It is a personal preference that is for sure. Since flying is involved in most places I dive, I use a Zeagle Covert, not only for the low weight (less than 4#) and 32# lift bladder, but it has integrated weight pockets. Before I purchased the Covert, I looked seriously at the Zeagle Express Tech, but found that it weighted about 2.5# or more than the Covert without any real benefit from what I could see. Since I do not do tech, cold water, cave or shipwreck dives, I did not need the flexibility that a bp/w offers. If I did those types of dives, I would not hesitate to get a bp/w.

A second "negative" of the bp/w is the general lack of knowledge and interest in bp/w by the diving public, again in my opinion. Most new divers buy something similar to what they used in training or rental gear, and many new divers start out thinking they are going to do all sorts of different type dives. However, life and changing interests often get in the way, and their newly purchased gear winds up on EBay. Hopefully not, but you might wind up in that category, and if you do, I suspect you would have more potential buyers for a good jacket bcd than a bp/w (other than trying to sell it on SB). Despite the preference for bp/w on this site, I rarely see them on dive boats used by clients or staff, and I do not remember ever seeing them as a rental option at dive ops. I am sure there are dive ops that rent them, but what I see is rows of jacket bcds and that tells me what most divers want to use for diving.

 

[The Chairman]

It almost seems like everyone experienced just advocates to spring for this.

Not everyone advocates a BP&Wing... I am partial to the hybrids like the Zeagle Express Tech and Dive Rite's Hunter Pack. They employ a 'soft' back plate which is far easier to travel with.

 

[Caveeagle]

Not everyone advocates a BP&Wing... I am partial to the hybrids like the Zeagle Express Tech and Dive Rite's Hunter Pack. They employ a 'soft' back plate which is far easier to travel with.

I have not gotten a close look at the DR Hunter Pack, but it looks nice. Sounds very similar to the Trans-Pac. As much as I like my BP/W set ups, I would be happy to take my Trans-Pac if traveling for single tank dives.