Talk me *OUT* of a BP/W setup

[Bennno]

QUESTIONS:

Break this down for me in "minutes" of setup time, plus ideal gear AND cost? Be realistic and assume I'm a little slower than you, and only dive 50-60 dives a year. Required Setup time for each + ideal gear/cost when swapping parts (ie different BP or W):

1. I've been diving cold freshwater in Oregon lakes with a 7mm wetsuit and singles, but need to switch to a cold saltwater deep dive in drysuit with doubles.
2. I've been diving cold saltwater in Puget sound with a drysuit and DOUBLES, but now want to switch to board shorts and a single for a warm water tropical dive in Bonaire.
3. I've been diving tropical warm water in Bonaire, and now will go to Alaska fresh lake cold water where I will dive deep fresh coldwater in drysuit + doubles.

So, this is not really what you asked, but if I wanted ONE rig for all the dives you mentioned above, than I would get a sidemount rig.

As you can see from what people have already said, ideally you need a different bp/w combination depending on where you are and what kind of gear you're diving. Using one wing for singles and doubles is not really a option, so you kinda need at least two wings. A bp/wing is also a bit of a PITA to travel with. A 'normal' BCD isn't the best choice for doubles.
So, buying a single bp/w or one jacket BCD will be a compromise either way.

With a good sidemount rig you can pretty much dive any kind of tank ('from single AL to heavy steel doubles') and any kind of suit without the compromise you would have to make when buying only one bp/w or a BCD. They're also very light and perfect for travelling.
I know you didn't ask for sidemount but I would at least consider it. I only use the same rig for cold and warm water.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I own four plates now. Down from 6 since I primarily dive sidemount now. My two steel plates were both bought in 2006 from Tobin. One for singles and one for doubles. Both harnesses are adjusted almost exactly the same. I dive them with a t shirt and trunks in the pool to a 3 and 5 mil in warmer water, and in two different drysuits. One suit is on the bulky side and the other fits pretty tight with my heavy undergarments.

The ONLY thing I have to adjust on them when switching between exposure suits is the crotch strap. One can get too picky about where this d ring goes and move it up or down an inch, but the truth is that is not necessary.

My aluminum plate is for travel and I have weight pockets on the cam bands up against the plate. One on each side. I can add whatever I need to use the plate for diving in a 3 mil or a drysuit. They do not shift around and when placed like this mimic a steel plate.

I have an 11 page article on them that covers options, basic adjustment, pockets, etc. It has been sent out to dozens of people and I am including it in my new book that will be out in the fall.

I will send it to just about anyone that EMAILS me at jimlap212@comcast.net

 

[filmguy123]

Also, this has been vague, but talk to me more about weight ditching. I really don't understand how this is NOT necessary given that its such a key part of safety training. If, God forbid, something happen and I am low on air where it becomes a choice of breathing VS properly inflating my BC/Wing to get to the surface, ditching weights is critical. The BP seems to make this quite difficult when the majority of your weight is "built in" to your rig? Please help explain to me how this truly not a downside. To be clear, I fully understand the upside that it is much more streamlined with better, more even weight distribution, etc. I do appreciate that, but I'm talking here on why ditching weights is somehow completely unnecessary with this setup even in unplanned, unusual emergency scenarios. As for where is my buddy? My buddy is dead. They just died. Sad day. Now I'm alone, in the red on air, and 100 feet under. Talk to me.
als? But the Zeagle here would be a pretty killer "one size fits all" easy solution?

Still some other questions I had in my last post, but one that yet hasn't been addressed and that is of particular interest to me is this one

 

[tbone1004]

you don't ditch weight at depth, end of story. If you can't maintain positive buoyancy at the surface for whatever reason, ditch the whole rig, but you never ditch at depth, you never dive a rig you can't kick up from the bottom, and that's the end of the discussion.

 

[doctormike]

Also, this has been vague, but talk to me more about weight ditching. I really don't understand how this is NOT necessary given that its such a key part of safety training. If, God forbid, something happen and I am low on air where it becomes a choice of breathing VS properly inflating my BC/Wing to get to the surface, ditching weights is critical. The BP seems to make this quite difficult when the majority of your weight is "built in" to your rig? Please help explain to me how this truly not a downside. To be clear, I fully understand the upside that it is much more streamlined with better, more even weight distribution, etc. I do appreciate that, but I'm talking here on why ditching weights is somehow completely unnecessary with this setup even in unplanned, unusual emergency scenarios. As for where is my buddy? My buddy is dead. They just died. Sad day. Now I'm alone, in the red on air, and 100 feet under. Talk to me.

What tbone said. This is a common misconception, that ditchable weight is like a parachute in a plane that you deploy when you are having an emergency. Weight ditching is really meant to be done on the surface, and even then it's pretty unlikely that a diver couldn't get positively buoyant without ditching (maybe a thin wetsuit and a wing failure).

The issue is that most new divers are very overweighted, so they may have trouble getting positively buoyant at the surface. Ideally, the whole rig should be balanced so that you are neutrally buoyant at your safety stop with a tank that only has a few hundred PSI in it. At this point, your wing should be empty. The wing is just there to compensate for the two things that change during a dive - the weight of gas that you consume and the compression of your suit at depth. So in shallow water with near empty tanks, you will be at your most buoyant, and you don't need gas in your wing. Figure out your weighting to hit that point, and you won't have a lot of weight to ditch. If you have a problem at depth, you should be able to swim your rig up by kicking, even if your wing doesn't work. Remember, it gets easier as you ascend, since your suit expands and becomes more buoyant.

You probably will need SOME weight, even in the tropics. For example, I dive a 3 mm shorty wetsuit with a steel backplate and an aluminum 80 in the Caribbean. I need about 4 lbs of weight, which I put in little trim pouches that strap to my tank cambands, so no extra weight on the belt for me. However, if you really want ditchable weight, you can get weight pockets that fit on a BP/W waist strap too. You don't need to ditch a huge amount of weight to get positive even in case of a wing failure if you aren't overweighted to begin with.

And finally, you are NEVER going to be at 100 feet "in the red on air", unless maybe you have a catastrophic double failure like buddy separation AND a blown low pressure hose. Right?

 

[filmguy123]

The issue is that most new divers are very overweighted, so they may have trouble getting positively buoyant at the surface. Ideally, the whole rig should be balanced so that you are neutrally buoyant at your safety stop with a tank that only has a few hundred PSI in it. At this point, your wing should be empty.

This is what I was not understanding, because all I've heard or been known so far is the PADI instruction in this regard. This is starting to make sense... So with a BP/W, how does the START of the dive look? If you are neutrally buoyant at a safety stop with little air left in the tank and an *empty* wing... I simply don't understand how you wouldn't be VERY positively buoyant at the START of the dive with a *full* air tank...?

And finally, you are NEVER going to be at 100 feet "in the red on air", unless maybe you have a catastrophic double failure like buddy separation AND a blown low pressure hose. Right?

Correct! But I have been reading "Diver Down" and it's always full of these fluke situations.

 

[doctormike]

This is what I was not understanding, because all I've heard or been known so far is the PADI instruction in this regard. This is starting to make sense... So with a BP/W, how does the START of the dive look? If you are neutrally buoyant at a safety stop with little air left in the tank and an *empty* wing... I simply don't understand how you wouldn't be VERY positively buoyant at the START of the dive with a *full* air tank...?

Nope, other way around. Air has weight, especially since the air in your tank is under high pressure. The gas that you breathe and exhale during the course of the dive makes you more buoyant, so with full tanks you are less buoyant. For an aluminum 80, the difference between 3000 psi and 500 psi is about 6 lbs. That is, if you are diving in a bathing suit (no suit compression to account for), and you are neutrally buoyant at the end of the dive, you would need to have 6 lbs of lift from your wing to compensate for the extra 6 lbs of gas that you are carrying in the beginning of the dive.

 

[Caveeagle]

This is what I was not understanding, because all I've heard or been known so far is the PADI instruction in this regard. This is starting to make sense... So with a BP/W, how does the START of the dive look? If you are neutrally buoyant at a safety stop with little air left in the tank and an *empty* wing... I simply don't understand how you wouldn't be VERY positively buoyant at the START of the dive with a *full* air tank...?

You should be more neqative at the start of your dive with a full tank. A full tank will have denser air, which will be heavier.

 

[Bennno]

So with a BP/W, how does the START of the dive look? If you are neutrally buoyant at a safety stop with little air left in the tank and an *empty* wing... I simply don't understand how you wouldn't be VERY positively buoyant at the START of the dive with a *full* air tank...?

Same thing whatever rig you dive. You start the dive 'too heavy' due to the weight of the gas you carry and you are neutral at 20'/10' with an almost empty tank and an empty wing.

 

[StefinSB]

I suggest some training before you strap on doubles and jump in the water in your drysuit. That will most probably clear up 99% of your questions