Sydney diver death-inquest report released

[almitywife]

hi guys

i know this is an aussie inquest report - but its so rare to have actual facts to learn from that i thought i would post it here

i only remind all that this diver has a family and please give them some respect when discussing this incident

many thanks

Mods, please note i cant remove the divers name as its part of public record

You will have to copy and paste this link:

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/lawlink/coroners_court/ll_coroners.nsf/vwFiles/Van%20Putten%20inquest.doc/$file/Van%20Putten%20inquest.doc

 

[TSandM]

There are a number of things that give me pause in this report.

One is that the magistrate feels that any special issues with a diver need to be recorded in the logbook. It may be different in Australia, but here in the US, whether you keep any sort of log of your dives or not is quite up to you. I would hate to have a legal standard that REQUIRED me to log all my dives, or specified what information I would have to have in such a log.

Secondly, the story of the dive pounds home the idea that the crew of the charter boat are part of your TEAM, and you need to consider carefully whether they are people you want to be dependent upon. I think a lot of people don't recognize that.

Third, I find it very chilling that the magistrate's bottom line from this incident is to increase government regulation of the scuba industry. I don't blame her for coming to that conclusion. What I think we should all ponder is whether the practice of certifying marginal divers is not setting the entire industry up for this kind of judgment in other countries as well, particularly the US.

 

[Cacia]

yes...Roger that.

 

[almitywife]

I agree - i dont even have a log book anymore so the assumption that stuff is to be recorded in it and to be treated as gospel is wrong.

there really is so many things here i can list that contributed to the death.

unprepared diver
unknowing buddies
conditions turning
divers fitness
diving beyond training
ect

unfortunately, im my state.... our government has a "treat everyone as idiots" policy and tries to legislate everything.

ive been told that when workcover took over Queensland diving - a large number of dive shops closed down as a result of all the legal loopholes to dance thru

 

[alcina]

TS&M touches on points that jumped at me - and there are several more in my mind, too.

 

[dhampton82]

I am still trying to figure out how new government regulations are gonna change the fact that some divers can not take care of them selfs and take care of proper gas planning....

I guess the "government regulation" is the answer to everything, huh?

maybe a tattoo on his forehead of his SAC should be a new required of all new PADI ow students

 

[Darnold9999]

Too many people think that government regulation is the answer to far too many problems. "Create a law, that will fix the problem." Ignoring the fact that the law is unenforceable and or has unintended consequenses and or just won't achieve the objective.

It sounds like this diver did not have adequate training or if he did then he did not take responsibility for his own dive. Now the Coroner wants to take this responsibility and assign it to the state. Not sure how this is going to be effective.

The proper place for responsibility is on the person/agency responsible for training the individual. I as a student put my trust in the agency/instructor to provide me with the information I need to keep me safe. I may want govenment to step in and make sure they regulate this activity as I as a new diver am in no position to evaluate an instructor/agancy. However once I have been trained and certified then that responsibility passes to me - not the state - I am the best person to take care of me, I have the most current information regarding my abilities and special needs. I don't see the need for regulations that attempt to pass that responsibility on to some other third party, like the dive boat operator or a buddy as in this case.

If I hire you to guide a dive then there is a contract of some kind and depending on what service you provide you may be assuming some responsibility, but it really does not sound like that was the case here. It does sound like the dive boat was a bit minimal, but this was a minimal charter from the sounds of it - we hire you to take us to the dive site. We do the dive you bring us back.

A buddy is a backup plan and is not "responsible" for me - I (not my buddy) am responsible for keeping track of my air, my backup air supply(my buddy), and the plan for getting to the surface. If I can't do this then I have no business being in the water. A good buddy will also be keeping track of these things for me as well, but ultimately I would be crazy to rely on them to do it for me. Just my opinion.

 

[IceIce]

A buddy is a backup plan and is not "responsible" for me - I (not my buddy) am responsible for keeping track of my air, my backup air supply(my buddy), and the plan for getting to the surface. If I can't do this then I have no business being in the water. A good buddy will also be keeping track of these things for me as well, but ultimately I would be crazy to rely on them to do it for me. Just my opinion.

Agree.
Nobody is responsible to you but yourself.

 

[tedtim]

There are a number of things that give me pause in this report.

One is that the magistrate feels that any special issues with a diver need to be recorded in the logbook. It may be different in Australia, but here in the US, whether you keep any sort of log of your dives or not is quite up to you. I would hate to have a legal standard that REQUIRED me to log all my dives, or specified what information I would have to have in such a log.

Spot on. Unless we have a licence to dive instead of a certification card the log book is personal stuff.

Secondly, the story of the dive pounds home the idea that the crew of the charter boat are part of your TEAM, and you need to consider carefully whether they are people you want to be dependent upon. I think a lot of people don't recognize that.

Spoken like a true professional who works with a team every day. We had the same consideration for our ground crew when I was in the flying business. We even taught this aspect as part of the ongoing Crew Resource Management training.

Third, I find it very chilling that the magistrate's bottom line from this incident is to increase government regulation of the scuba industry. I don't blame her for coming to that conclusion. What I think we should all ponder is whether the practice of certifying marginal divers is not setting the entire industry up for this kind of judgment in other countries as well, particularly the US.

One word as an example of this already - Quebec.

 

[two.crows]

A buddy is a backup plan and is not "responsible" for me - I (not my buddy) am responsible for keeping track of my air, my backup air supply(my buddy), and the plan for getting to the surface.

Hm. While I agree that I should be capable to take care of myself, this story is not really about what to do differently if you want to survive as a diver. This story is about responsibility towards your buddy. What would I as a buddy have done?

One take-home message here is the hazard of not making buddy relationships explicit. Another message is the importance of some reasonable leader/follower arrangement. (Probably, when there is a significant difference in experience, this would mean having the more inexperienced diver lead at his comfort level. Of course after having the most experienced diver make and communicate The Plan). There is more to be noted - all in hindsight.

But what really caught my attention was the following:
"[...] surveys of diving fatalities indicated that around 50% showed
no signs of behavioural change. In one third of the cases, the first
objective warning sign was a loss of consciousness. [...]"

Is that so? No signs? I'm not sure. I would guess (barring shallow water blackout) that there is almost always a stress situation preceding the accident: increased rate of breath, increased neglect of buoyancy compensation, increased, erratic waving of hands for postural control ... even if these are not "objective", they are noticeable nevertheless. And shouldn't we treat these as seriously as we treat an equipment malfunction? And teach to recognize them? And teach the social skills to deal with them?

Which leads to the really interesting part: at what point do you call the dive because you feel your buddy is not able to handle it? And this is not hypothetical: many, many of us have been in the water, paired up with someone they hardly know, who did not seem very competent. So at what point of observing this do you thumb it, and tell them "Dear friend, I can't dive with you. I can't, because I can't do it responsibly."

Because this is possibly what should have happened on December 13. 2004

And we've been there. And dove anyway.



With respects.