swimthroughs and inherent danger thereof

[MikeFerrara]

And yet, hundreds of BOW divers will do these "swim throughs" this very week without getting injured. There'll be stories like this poster's about fear and silt and stuff, but I think the DMs continue to do these dives because people continue to survive them. I've never heard of a death in a vacation swim through. Have you??

Define "vacation swim through". The majority of divers who have died in caves were not trained in cave diving. Maybe we could call all of them vacation swim throughs and most probably only intended to poke their noses in for a quick look. In Florida almost every cave has a skull and cross bones sign at the entrance with a death toll number on it.

At one time the cave community was able to boast that no trained cave diver had died in a cave. That's no longer true but most deaths are still the result of failure to folloe one or more of the basic rules taught and practiced in cave training.

The divers doing these "vacation swim throughs" are breaking every single one of those rules (the first of which is to have the training). Now, some of these swim throughs may be more like swim throughs than caves. However, the one in the post I responded too sounds like a cave to me. Not following cave diving rules does not mean that you will die. It means that you have done nothing proactive to insure your survival and are trusting to luck.

Getting away with something stupid doesn't make it smart but hey...whatever floats your boat.

 

[Mark Vlahos]

Not following cave diving rules does not mean that you will die. It means that you have done nothing proactive to insure your survival and are trusting to luck.

Mike,

What a wonderful quote. I wish more divers would heed this advice, unfortunately, most of the divers who do not are not even aware of what risk they are taking.

Mark Vlahos

 

[Mako Mark]

I agree with Mike F.

And...this is not the first time i"ve said this on this board. Too many of these so called "DMs" are not DMs at at all. Nothing more than "local hired guides" who can speak another language. Cert level maybe advanced, maybe rescue.....

Regards,

While this may have been the case a few years ago, and I have seen it in a number of places around the world, Mexico has reformed the laws regarding the guiding of specialized activities including diving and cave diving and has some very strict regulations and licencing of who and who cant be a "dive guide"

Here is the exact wording from Sectur Nom 9

5.1.1.1 Para ser guía en aguas abiertas se debe contar con los siguientes requisitos:

a) Tener licencia como guía de buceo, instructor de buceo o como asistente de instructor en cualquiera de sus niveles;
b) Haber tomado un curso de soporte básico de la vida y administración de oxígeno para accidentes de buceo.

here is the entire document (only available in spanish)

 

[hdtran]

...snip...
Here is the exact wording from Sectur Nom 9

5.1.1.1 Para ser guía en aguas abiertas se debe contar con los siguientes requisitos:

a) Tener licencia como guía de buceo, instructor de buceo o como asistente de instructor en cualquiera de sus niveles;
b) Haber tomado un curso de soporte básico de la vida y administración de oxígeno para accidentes de buceo.

here is the entire document (only available in spanish)

Loosely translated:

5.1.1.1 In order to be a guide in open water, one should meet the following specifications:
(a) Have a license as Scuba Guide, Scuba Instructor, or Scuba Assistant Instructor;
(b) Have taken a course on basic life support + administration of oxygen for scuba accidents

 

[ScubaSarus]

Were can you get certified as a scuba guide ? I've seen a dive leader certification.

 

[Bobby]

And yet, hundreds of BOW divers will do these "swim throughs" this very week without getting injured. There'll be stories like this poster's about fear and silt and stuff, but I think the DMs continue to do these dives because people continue to survive them. I've never heard of a death in a vacation swim through. Have you??
I don't necessarily agree with them. Just saying...
But I am a hypocrite. When I'm in Coz in two weeks, if the boat goes to the Devil's Throat (a swim through that could absolutely be called a cave, and dumps you out at 130'), I'll do the dive, even though I've had no cave training.
Good advice though, mike. I'll try to be right behind the DM.

Well just off the top of my head we have the death last year at Kings Spring, and Devils Ear by OW diver just doing a swim through or going just into the entrance of the cavern. Outside the US getting information on overhead accidents is more difficult, Mexico has good information for cave areas but not so much for OW sites or off shore.
The mind set that lots of people do it and survive I personaly do not agree with. I have worked at places that had this mind set of "we have always done it this way and no one has died" I do not want to be the one that has that first death because I do not think that defense will stand up or make it easier for the loved ones of the person that did not make it out.
OW training is just what it says and yes you may get away with going into an overhead with out that training, that does not change the fact that you are going beyond your training the number one cause of death in over head environments. The same as you may get away with driving down the road at 100mph with out your seat belt on. The seat belt may or may not save your life but it will increase your chances if you do wreck and you should not drive 100mph unless you are on a closed course designed for that type of driving.

Bobby

 

[Scuba]

And yet, hundreds of BOW divers will do these "swim throughs" this very week without getting injured. There'll be stories like this poster's about fear and silt and stuff, but I think the DMs continue to do these dives because people continue to survive them. I've never heard of a death in a vacation swim through. Have you?

I don't mean to continue the pounding Rick, but this quote illustrates a rationale used to gain acceptance for what is a negative practice.

Even if we assume no one has died in these type of dives, mwm's story tells of several who where lucky to survive. Had they or other divers in the same predicament reacted a little different, something which could be totally expected depending on experience level, just to name one factor, we might instead be discussing how unlucky they were, or rather, many would be calling them dumb and solely responsible.

Another aspect of this is: taking divers to do dives they are not trained for, and failing to provide adequate supervision on top of it, is purely relying on luck for good results. Luck can be said to be statistical in nature. In other words, sooner or later it will run out.

Recreational diving is not about surviving. It is about safely enjoying the underwater world. Do you think these divers enjoyed their dive? Do you think they can't wait to come back and do it again once they have time to think about their survival diving recreational hobby?

mwm, your post shows a large degree of, in my opinion, gross negligence on the part of the dm/guide. Possibly some degree on the part of charter operator depending on his knowledge of such practice, and effort to ascertain safe practices are followed. You obviously learned something form these dives, as well as possibly others reading this. One of the benefits of forums such as this. I would suggest you, or anyone else who encounters such dangerous conditions, to make an effort to not only inform the person directly responsible, but his employer, as well as file a formal complaint or incident report with the appropriate certifying/licensing agency. There is no room in diving for this type of gross professional negligence which endangers lives. Those licensing professionals should take immediate action, investigate, and enforce immediate remediation or termination as deemed appropriate.

If one feels licensing agencies are not seriously addressing such matters it should be brought to public attention, in forums such as this one amongst various options, so that those interested can help contribute in exerting pressure demanding change.

mwm, please file a complaint or incident report if you have the information necessary to do so. At the very least, this should establish prior notice in the event of any future accident resulting from the grossly negligent behaviour of this individual.

I'm assuming info provided is accurate.

 

[Rick Inman]

I don't mean to continue the pounding Rick, but this quote illustrates a rationale used to gain acceptance for what is a negative practice.

Right. I'm NOT saying I agree with the practice or the rational, which was the next sentence after my quote. I was just giving the existing rational. After all, as I said near the bottom, if I agreed with the rational I wouldn't be a hypocrite.

Oh, and feel free to pound away.

 

[mwn]

Scuba, it is too late to file a complaint, although your point is well taken. That was years ago, back in 1998. I was even more of a novice then than I am now.

In that group, we had some cowboys. You know the type, they consider themselves professionals when they have had 19 dives, including certification dives. In discussions about it on the boat, the cowboys scoffed at those of us that were concerned about it. The DM did point out before that dive, and on subsequent dives, that if we didn't want to do the swim throughs, we could swim over. He reminded us of that when we spoke to him. So we let it drop.

The couple, didn't dive any more that day, and I didn't see them any more that week, which doesn't mean anything, they were not part of our travel group. I did other dives, but went over the swim throughs, and yes, took the razzing because I was "too chicken" to do the swim throughs. All I could say is cluck cluck cluck.

I found out later that the dive operation did not exactly have a stellar name in the area.

I do appreciate the fact that this thread reinforces what I felt about that then.

I lived and I learned.

 

[flyinghuntster]

There are lessons to be learned from others mistakes. When I was diving in Malta on the HMS Maori, Our DM was VERY insistent that NO one enter the wreck or get into a situation were anything was over head! It is up to the DMs and dive shops to establish a dive that is at the level of the LEAST skilled diver. By not doing so it puts the inexperienced divers at a higher risk. It is also important to maintain the buddy system so that if one diver doesn't feel comfortable going through a section with the rest of the group you have a way of opting out and you can simply go around and meet the rest on the other side. Staying safe is EVERYONEs job!!!!!