PerroneFord
Contributor
Sounds to me like you should have gotten an Aluminum backplate. Not sure why you thnk you need toothed webbing keepers. The normal tri-glides seem to work just fine for me. In fact, they came standard on my setup.
Surely it's not supposed to be this difficult
- Thread starter mongoose
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mongoose:
Two things to work on are hose routing and buoancy adjustments.
with hose routing, if one of the hoses trap gas in the wing the diver can't trim side to side. with one side lower you tend to skull with your low side arm. try raising your shoulder untill you HEAR the gas shift in the wing.
With buoancy, always remember that double al 80's are pos buoant when empty. so a diver starts neg and ends pos. At about 1500 psi the shiz hits the fan in double 80's. So bleed of gas in the wing at about that time in the dive ( I know I do
)your goal should be to have no gas in the wing at the end of the dive . If you have gas in the wing at your safety stop, you're to heavy
You need to stop buying stuff, and start borrowing stuff. There is a bunch of stuff out there to pick from, and most of us have a few drawers or tubs full of stuff that we bought thinking it was the right stuff when it turned out to be the wrong stuff. Since this path you're wanting to go down requires lots of stuff, and since all that stuff has to (a) work together and (b) is vital to your not being completely out of control, which stuff you wind up with is really important.
You need to find other guys on this board who already have their own stuff, and get with them to do some practice dives. Mentors are the best way to learn this stuff. They'll be happy to empty out their drawers and tubs of all the stuff they bought that they don't use anymore now, and give you a chance to try and compare different stuff to find out what stuff is the right stuff for you. THEN buy your own stuff, after you've found out what stuff works best for you individually. (hint: toothed triglides are not important.)
Always try to use OPM when embarking on very expensive sports.
OPM = "Other People's Money"
Best,
Doc
You need to find other guys on this board who already have their own stuff, and get with them to do some practice dives. Mentors are the best way to learn this stuff. They'll be happy to empty out their drawers and tubs of all the stuff they bought that they don't use anymore now, and give you a chance to try and compare different stuff to find out what stuff is the right stuff for you. THEN buy your own stuff, after you've found out what stuff works best for you individually. (hint: toothed triglides are not important.)
Always try to use OPM when embarking on very expensive sports.
OPM = "Other People's Money"
Best,
Doc
ShakaZulu
Contributor
"until I can calmly do helicopter turns inside a submerged honda civic with no mask, while people shoot at me with spearguns"
OMG, that is funny..........
OMG, that is funny..........
Take the instructors advice: relax. If you can't relax you are, as you noted a safety hazard and should get out of the water. A lot of the problem may well be coming from your emotional state and I think you'll find that a little time in the water will help solve much of it. Being "hell-bent" isn't going to help.
The fact that you were task-loaded to the breaking point is good - and one of the big differences between the softer/gentler recreational training you've been through up until now and technical training. Being pushed to the edge of the envelope (or just beyond) is how you learn to expand the edge of the envelope. Additionally, technical diving requires that divers be able to control themselves in situations a lot more difficult than what you just experienced. Relax, accept your temporary incompetence and have fun learning how to do better.
It's only natural to feel like a drunken turtle for quite a few dives after you switch to doubles (or added stage/deco bottles) - you've just made some major changes to your bouyancy, mass, center of gravity and streamlining and this makes things weird during the adjustment period. Learning to live with doubles on your back takes some doing - success comes as much from getting to know what you can't do as how to do the things you're used to. If you try to muscle doubles, they tend to muscle right back so slow and easy does it.
Definitely get the crotch strap - and make sure you get your entire rig adjusted correctly. In the water, the crotch strap is as important as the shoulder straps for maintaining control over the rig. Other than an aluminum backplate, there isn't going to be a lot you can do to lighten the load but also remember that trim is almost as important as buoyancy. Adjusting your trim requires patience and help, so find someone who actually knows what they're doing to spend some time assisting you in the water with the process of adding/subtracting/repositioning/adjusting your tanks, bands, backplate, webbing and weights. It's not uncommon to find that good trim requires adding a little judiciously placed weight, even if it means making you more negative than you need to be. Doc's advice about finding someone(s) with a truckload of gear to try on and to guide you through the process is excellent - bring beer money so you can lubricate the post-dive analysis, too.
As to being neutral at your last stop with no gas in your wing, remember that Boyle's law works on any compressible substance and nowhere more so than the last 10 - 20 feet of the water column. Even with no gas in your wing, you're still carrying gas (including your wet/dry suit and your gut) that will expand as you ascend. If you want to be able to control a long, slow ascent from on the final leg of the trip topside, better to be a little negative at that last stop.
The fact that you were task-loaded to the breaking point is good - and one of the big differences between the softer/gentler recreational training you've been through up until now and technical training. Being pushed to the edge of the envelope (or just beyond) is how you learn to expand the edge of the envelope. Additionally, technical diving requires that divers be able to control themselves in situations a lot more difficult than what you just experienced. Relax, accept your temporary incompetence and have fun learning how to do better.
It's only natural to feel like a drunken turtle for quite a few dives after you switch to doubles (or added stage/deco bottles) - you've just made some major changes to your bouyancy, mass, center of gravity and streamlining and this makes things weird during the adjustment period. Learning to live with doubles on your back takes some doing - success comes as much from getting to know what you can't do as how to do the things you're used to. If you try to muscle doubles, they tend to muscle right back so slow and easy does it.
Definitely get the crotch strap - and make sure you get your entire rig adjusted correctly. In the water, the crotch strap is as important as the shoulder straps for maintaining control over the rig. Other than an aluminum backplate, there isn't going to be a lot you can do to lighten the load but also remember that trim is almost as important as buoyancy. Adjusting your trim requires patience and help, so find someone who actually knows what they're doing to spend some time assisting you in the water with the process of adding/subtracting/repositioning/adjusting your tanks, bands, backplate, webbing and weights. It's not uncommon to find that good trim requires adding a little judiciously placed weight, even if it means making you more negative than you need to be. Doc's advice about finding someone(s) with a truckload of gear to try on and to guide you through the process is excellent - bring beer money so you can lubricate the post-dive analysis, too.
As to being neutral at your last stop with no gas in your wing, remember that Boyle's law works on any compressible substance and nowhere more so than the last 10 - 20 feet of the water column. Even with no gas in your wing, you're still carrying gas (including your wet/dry suit and your gut) that will expand as you ascend. If you want to be able to control a long, slow ascent from on the final leg of the trip topside, better to be a little negative at that last stop.
ericfine50
Contributor
I think you said you have around 100 dives and have been divnig for a year and a 1/2. Relaxe, slow down. Diving is supposed to be fun. Doc is right - you need to stop buying gear. One BP or another is not going to change anything. A BP is a BP is a BP. So is a webbing harness (more or less). Check the bands on the doubles - make sure they are up high enough and just get some dives in. Go for some fun dives outside of a class.
cyklon_300
Contributor
into thinking that simply because you were adept in your rec single-tank rig, that you're gonna take a leisurely walk in the park in technical configs. Different story completely...continue to task-load and just let your ego take some whacks until you get the hang of it all. Keep practicing the requisite skills until they become automatic responses. The best thing I learned was to take my time executing, the faster I tried to do stuff the worse the outcome was...learn the motions first, quickness will come afterwards.
It's like shooting a basketball...you don't consciously think about catching it, lacing up the seams on your fingertips, putting backspin and proper trajectory on the release...you just get to your spot and shoot. Doing it a couple hundred (or thousand) times ingraines the muscle memory.
Your gear needs more refinement, too... a 2mm shortie and a steel plate doesn't sound like a proper starting point.
It's like shooting a basketball...you don't consciously think about catching it, lacing up the seams on your fingertips, putting backspin and proper trajectory on the release...you just get to your spot and shoot. Doing it a couple hundred (or thousand) times ingraines the muscle memory.
Your gear needs more refinement, too... a 2mm shortie and a steel plate doesn't sound like a proper starting point.
pakman
Contributor
Out of curiosity did you do any pool sessions? I've just started diving doubles and have only done pool sessions up to now getting used to the setup (alu bp w/ 40lb wing, 3m full suit/ shortie, steel tanks, no weights). About to head off this weekend to finish off the open water portion of the IANTD adv. nitrox/ deep course. While they only required one pool session, I've actually taken my doubles every chance that my LDS was using their pool for other courses to just to get used to the setup, work on trim, finning techniques, and purposely turtling myself to get a feel for how the doubles setup reacts. Looking forward to how well I can control this rig in open salt water!
Oh and reefrat is spot on about trying to muscle the doubles. In my limited experience with the doubles, I've found subtle moves helped, for instance when helicopter turns. My first try, I was finning too hard resulting in partially losing my balance and nearly turtling while doing helicopter turns.
Oh and reefrat is spot on about trying to muscle the doubles. In my limited experience with the doubles, I've found subtle moves helped, for instance when helicopter turns. My first try, I was finning too hard resulting in partially losing my balance and nearly turtling while doing helicopter turns.
Get in the pool.
Stay in the pool for hours.
You'll sort it out.
Rick
Stay in the pool for hours.
You'll sort it out.
Rick
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