Super High Performance Regs

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rescuediver009:
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Interesting about the size of a hose's internal diameter. I realize that the hose has an obviously bigger inlet, however, take a look down that inlet and you will find that it tapers down immediately which kind of eliminates the principle of the theory...
Looking at your profile, here's an example that may help: think of friction loss in fireground hose. Although you may pump through a 2 1/2" outlet into LDH (5" Large Diamater Hose), the friction loss for that hoselay is determined by the diameter of the hose, not the orifice.

All the best, James
 
It's been awhile since reg repair class, but here goes...

Metal second stages are far more likely to resist free flow due to thermal concerns. Metal second stages are far more resilient, lasting many more years, and servicing cycles. Another minor benefit to metal second stages is they attract condensation, this can offer a moister breath, especially useful with super dry nitrox.

??? Seems to me, metal would change it's shape more so than plastic, causing greater chance for free flow. Additionally, if you dent your metal second stage, you're going to be buying a new housing. I myself have an all-plastic case sherwood oasis, which is turning 10 years old this year. No problems whatsoever. It also has metal fins inside to attract condensation-best of both worlds.

Typical (low) performance equipment uses 3/8 inch hose fittings, this smaller size has the negative effect of causing intermediate pressure drop, which makes the regulator lose smoothness or stutter and dramatically increases breathing resistance, causing carbon dioxide build up with the ensuing head aches or even blackout.

??? How does exhaled CO2 somehow get sucked up into the hose?

The reasoning behind sealing the first stage is, that by keeping the cold water away from the HP seat area, this may minimise freezing. I think any novice diver knows that the air leaving the first stage gets very cold, more likely is this air is colder than the surrounding water temperature. The coldness is due to reverse adiabatic compression (Joule-Thompson effect).

??? The air leaving the first stage at a high rate turns very cold. But not the air leaving at the normal rate of inhalation.

The Environmental seal stops water from entering the first stage. If water (or its hydrostatic effects) does not manage to reach the main diaphragm, the regulator looses ambient pressure compensation. An un-compensated regulator becomes harder and harder to breath as depth increases.

??"un-compensated"? I guess that means un-balanced. I guess this is somewhat true, but there are other ways of balancing the first stage without allowing water inside the housing.

Servo assisted -Up Stream second stages have an extremely low work of breathing, but need lots of engineering know how to achieve this. Lots of engineering may work well in a less life continuing setting. When you are underwater, simplicity is the key to survival.

I actually agree with him this time...
 
fdog:
Looking at your profile, here's an example that may help: think of friction loss in fireground hose. Although you may pump through a 2 1/2" outlet into LDH (5" Large Diamater Hose), the friction loss for that hoselay is determined by the diameter of the hose, not the orifice.

All the best, James

I know what you are saying but I don't think that if you were relay pumping from a 38m outlet to a 100mm supply line that it would be all that efficient. Also I don't think that all the same principles apply with air. I understand what is said in the article I am just saying that I do not necessarily agree with it. Also water creates friction loss is a narrowed opening whereas Air will create a vacuum as mentioned. I know what you mean but don't think that it applies.
 
After reading this article I would have to say that I was surprised at the least by what seemed to be the anti apeks commentary by the author (who I am assuming is Mark Ellyatt although I did not see where it explicitly said he wrote this). Let me first say I am not anti Mares. I do like all the brands that I have used such as Atomic, Apeks, Scubapro, Sherwood, Genesis, and Aqualung. I would be comfortable doing just about any type of diving with any of these regs including Mares.

I also believe any argument made in this article is a moot point for 99.9% of all divers because most plastic, environmentally sealed regs work great for 99.9% of all dives out there. I have never did any extreme deep diving and don't intend to but I love to discuss the design features of modern scuba equipment.

If the type of regs discussed in this article were indeed bad for extreme deep dives then how in the world did John Bennett survive his record setting deep dives using Apeks regs. Check this article out.

http://www.divernet.com/technique/0901bends.htm#top

What is that around Ellyatt's neck hmm an Apeks. He is lucky to be alive if they are that bad. If you don't like the environmental seal then take it off, you don't even need it for the reg to function properly. Environmental seals causing icing is just a ridiculous claim and it just blows my mind that someone would attempt to argue this. Does your reg have to be sealed to be able to dive deep? No way, but it does help with 1st stage freeze ups.

Metal vs. Plastic.... Both designs have been proven by countless numbers of dives both have advantages and disadvantages but I don't believe this characteristic plays much of a role in the function of a regulator. It does play a role with comfort. As far as comfort is concerned I would be much more worried about weight vs. buoyancy of the second stage than if my reg breathed dry or not.

In closing I believe that the whole of the article is propaganda trying to sell more Mares regs by taking the features that other companies offer and downplaying them to the point of leading you to believe they are almost dangerous regulator characteristics.

My thoughts in a nutshell

Gillty
 
Gillty:
http://www.divernet.com/technique/0901bends.htm#top

What is that around Ellyatt's neck hmm an Apeks. He is lucky to be alive if they are that bad. If you don't like the environmental seal then take it off, you don't even need it for the reg to function properly. Environmental seals causing icing is just a ridiculous claim and it just blows my mind that someone would attempt to argue this. Does your reg have to be sealed to be able to dive deep? No way, but it does help with 1st stage freeze ups.

Gillty
I must say that although viewed initially as a professional I think that it is just a Mares selling thing. I think that this was the response that I was looking for. Yes that is an Apeks around his neck and on his tank and on his stage bottle. So I guess he is full of s**t then. I think that althugh there are many statements in the article that are easily debated and frequently are here on the board, I think that the two particularly about environmental seals and reg simplicity are inane. Thanks for all the replies Keep them coming.
 
Isn't Ellyatt also the guy who has a lawsuit pending against Abyss?

If so, is that for their reg or thier deco software? If it is for the reg, maybe that will reflect on some of the issues he raises...Although I thk the Abyss regs were based more on Poesidon (sp?) technology...?

If it's a different guy, sorry for the sidetrack...
 
darylm74:
I think they are making reference to the Carnot Cycle with respect to reverse adiabatic compression (there is also reference to reverse adiabatic expansion, which to me seems more relevant to what he was saying). As you know, definitely much better than me, the Carnot cycle goes in 4 steps and between the cycle from step 4 back to step 1, a reversible adiabatic compression process increases the working fluid temperature from T(low) to T(high). This is strictly out of the text book and I can't state how this relates exactly (I haven't touched this stuff in 8 or so years), but just stating what I found and thought this might ring a few bells. I'm sure that terminology in textbooks and terminology in the real world is probably very different as I find that in my own job quite often.


Sorry if I went out on a tangent from this thread....
If anyone is in practice demonstratingANY thermodynamic cycle by breathing from a scuba regulator, it would completely redefine my understanding of the term, as the tank pressure does not decrease then increase back to its original pressure. I don't know what the author really had in his mind here but I'll stick by my thoughts that it's likely translation issues into English being literal from another language.

And, someone commented that pressure drop decreases flow. Actually, the relationship is flow is proportional to the sqare of the pressure drop, and increasing pressure drop increases flow - UNTIL you hit what's defined as choked flow - where increasing pressure drop does not increase flow.

So, keeping the hose ID larger would increase flow at constant pressure drop versus a smaller hose ID, but all the reports of Mares, Scubapro, etc. first stages demonstrating more than two (sometimes a LOT more) divers breathing off the same first stage at a time doesn't really mesh with what's presented here. I know Scubapro marketed a 'super flow' hose at one time, and my pre-owned D400 second stage came with such a hose, but I haven't found it restricts my gas demand if it's mounted on a non-Scubapro hose, and it still screws in to the same LP ports on the first stage.
 
jagfish:
Isn't Ellyatt also the guy who has a lawsuit pending against Abyss?

If so, is that for their reg or thier deco software? If it is for the reg, maybe that will reflect on some of the issues he raises...Although I thk the Abyss regs were based more on Poesidon (sp?) technology...?

If it's a different guy, sorry for the sidetrack...

I don't think so as he mentions that he uses his own algorythm so to speak. I don't know about the reg. He is starting to sound like an attention craver.
 
I don't think Mark Ellyatt, despite his genuine deep diving ability, is necessarily an authority on regulator design. He's quite a controversial figure in his native Great Britain... In any event, here's an article connecting him to the development of the Abyss Explorer computer:

DATELINE: 27th July 2001

DECO GUINEA-PIG
A mixed-gas diver has put his faith in new thinking on deep-dive decompression schedules to the test - by pushing a newly developed computer programme to its limits on a 160m dive off Alderney, in the Channel Islands.
Jersey-based TDI instructor Mark Ellyatt was checking out new software available for the Abyss Explorer dive computer, based on theories developed by Dr Bruce Weinke of the US National Atomic Energy Laboratory.
In essence Weinke believes that previously applied principles of deep-dive decompression, in which rapid initial ascents are followed by lengthy shallower-water stage deco stops, leads to a "cause and cure" process.
The initial ascent creates micro-bubbles and sub-clinical decompression illness (DCI), which then has to be "cured" by the stops.
Better, he says, is to carry out earlier, regular stops from depth, to avoid micro-bubble formation and cut the need for long stops later in the ascent. Overall, total decompression time is reduced.
Ellyatt's dive started with 12 minutes of bottom time at 160m on the wreck of the Baden in Hurd Deep - though by the time he surfaced, having carried out his ascent and stops on a line hung by his cover boat, the tide had whisked him eight miles from his starting position.
"The idea is that you start stops at about 80 per cent of your maximum diving depth," Ellyatt told Divernet. "Starting at 135m, I followed a schedule which involved 30 second stops every 3m, later 1.5 minutes every 3m. The last stop was for about half an hour at 6m."
Overall, he said, his stop-time had been about three hours less than with other schedules he had used.
Leaving the water, Ellyatt experienced a sense of confusion and imbalance, and worried that he might be suffering from DCI, but the symptoms cleared and he put them down to head congestion. He breathed oxygen at the surface and back on the boat for half an hour.
"We were ready for an in-water recompression treatment if necessary, with a descent to, say, 50m followed by breathing oxygen in shallower water," he said. "If necessary the boat could then have called for evacuation to a chamber while I was down there."
It is not clear whether the Weinke approach will catch on among technical divers. "Richie Stevenson says it's madness, and John Bennett knows a couple of guys who got bent using the programme on 80m dives, and says he won't touch it," said Ellyatt. "But I know that the WKPP caving guys in the US are using it."
The problem, he explained, is that the Weinke algorithms require fine-tuning to suit a specific dive, and can be misapplied. "If you're going to take it to its limits, you need to know exactly what you're doing to apply the program safely," he said.
"Even the basic thinking is being continually fine-tuned. For instance, gas consumption is heavy with all those 30 second stops every 3m, and now the thinking is for stops of one minute, spaced out a bit more.
"Weinke is careful when asked to recommend specific schedules based around the program. With some people he has recommended his deep-water stops procedure, but still added relatively generous shallow-water stops for safety."
So will Ellyatt continue to push the Weinke model to its limits?
"Yes, with careful preparation I'm happy to do that," he said. "I'm planning to do a 210m dive in the Philippines, at a site a long way from shore.
"There'll be a specialist in in-water recompression with me, just in case."
 
CRDiver:
I don't think Mark Ellyatt, despite his genuine deep diving ability, is necessarily an authority on regulator design. He's quite a controversial figure in his native Great Britain... "


Nice to see sombody has done a bit of reserach :eyebrow:

Like the sig line as well :wink:
 

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