Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[boulderjohn]

Another red herring--to a degree--is all the hoopla about her lack of training for diving at altitude. They were not at an altitude where the dive planning would be affected much at all--with normal precautions,

However....

A student diving at altitude should be apprised of those normal precautions during the dive planning. She should have been apprised of those altitude factors when she logged her dive the week before. Did she log her dive the week before? I don't remember it being mentioned. Logging dives is required for certification. Dive planning, which would have included altitude, was not mentioned, IIRC. I don't recall any mention of how the dive was to be measured--tables or compute? I don't remember any of the required devices for either being mentioned.


It was a long article, and I will admit to imperfect memory. If those factors were mentioned, please correct me.

 

[boulderjohn]

She had 5 dives. That still a brand new diver with no drysuit experience! She trusted her instructor. I don't put any blame on LINNEA MILLS.

I agree.

The article mentioned that she never had a drysuit training session. That training session would have included the use of the drysuit hose for inflation, of course. It would also have included how to do a proper weight check with a drysuit. In fact, a weight check would be required prior to the dive as well. So she had none of the training, and she made the mistake of trusting a thoroughly incompetent instructor--how would she have known any better? I mentioned earlier that I had seen a picture of a friend diving who was obviously grossly overweighted right after she had finished her drysuit certification. That person was a highly experienced instructor, and she trusted her drysuit instructor.

With the amount of non-ditchable weight she had, the size of the BCD she was wearing, and a drysuit that could not be inflated, she was pretty much doomed as soon as she descended.

 

[Wookie]

I agree.

The article mentioned that she never had a drysuit training session. That training session would have included the use of the drysuit hose for inflation, of course. It would also have included how to do a proper weight check with a drysuit. In fact, a weight check would be required prior to the dive as well. So she had none of the training, and she made the mistake of trusting a thoroughly incompetent instructor--how would she have known any better? I mentioned earlier that I had seen a picture of a friend diving who was obviously grossly overweighted right after she had finished her drysuit certification. That person was a highly experienced instructor, and she trusted her drysuit instructor.

With the amount of non-ditchable weight she had, the size of the BCD she was wearing, and a drysuit that could not be inflated, she was pretty much doomed as soon as she descended.

When I read stories like this, I am reminded of every other horror story (especially regarding diving) I have ever read. That is, this was not a single error that killed this girl, this went beyond normalization of deviance, this was uncountable errors that added up to a horrible accident, and when any one of those links in the chain were broken, the girl would be 19 today. Add a proper inflator hose, teach a pool familiarization session, add a competent divemaster, add a competent instructor, multitudes of little links in the chain had to happen in the correct order to make this happen. Heck, it seems easier to just do it right than to cut the corners necessary to cause this chain of events.

like the Stewart case, anyone there could have stopped this from happening, and no one did, for various reasons.

scuba diving may not be a safe sport, but it can be done safely.

 

[Power Scuba]

The instructor created a FaceBook post on November 11th saying she was out of the hospital [don't know what for], cannot comment on the incident [nevermind that she DID make multiple social media comments], and prayers for the family who lost a loved one. ON THAT SAME DAY, she posted a joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto. #noremorse #noheart #nosoul

 

[boulderjohn]

boulderjohn , I have nothing but the highest respect for your pedagogy and diving experience, but I am personally surprised that instructors don't have to at least audit the classes they teach. They may be extremely experienced, but they're not experienced in taking the class. And getting a PhD requires a lot more smarts and teaching experience than getting an instructor credential.

It is frequently just not practical. Additionally, each of the courses has detailed instructor directions and standards. The instructor is supposed to have extensive experience in the subject area of the class before hand, so that instructor should be able to use the guidelines with ease. Here are some examples of classes I am certified to teach for which it was impractical for me to do an internship, with my living in Colorado as a key factor.

• I am certified to teach dive propulsion vehicles (scooters) by PADI. Before obtaining that certification, I earned 3 DPV certifications from 2 different non-PADI agencies, including certification for the use of a DPV in a cave. I do not know another PADI DPV instructor in my area. I own 2 DPVs, so I am able to teach it. I do not know a PADI instructor in my area who owns a single DPV.
• I am certified to teach the PADI wreck diving course, which is a far too easy course that does nothing really technical. I have no idea how many wrecks I have dived over the years. There are no wrecks in Colorado, so I only teach it when I am in Florida. I don't do it often, but the demand arises from time to time.
• As I prepared to lead a group trip to Cozumel, the shop manager advised me that one of the customers wanted to get certified for night diving. The night diving course is very easy, and I have done countless night dives around the world. No one in the shop was certified to teach the night diving course. Why not? Most instructors would be qualified. The reason is that you have to pay a fee to get the certification, and no one wants to pay that fee for a course they will never teach. So I paid my fee to get certified, and the student I taught remains the only person I have ever heard of taking that class. It cost me more to certify than I earned teaching it.

 

[runsongas]

• Encouraging someone to do an Advanced course at altitude after only 5 dives
  
• Diving in very cold water after only 5 dives
• Putting someone in two wetsuits at any time
• Encouraging someone to but a drysuit after only 6 dives
• Diving with a drysuit after only 6 dives
• Diving with a drysuit without any advice/instruction
• Not checking that the hired dive gear was compatible with drysuit
• Overweighting drysuit diver
• Taking the diver underwater without an attached inflator hose
• Let alone watching after the student underwater

Most of that list could be handled perfectly fine with a competent instructor. I did altitude as part of my own aow in lake tahoe. used a two piece 7mm wetsuit for my certification and early diving in monterey, which is not too far off from having two wetsuits on. drysuit can also be done as an elective as part of aow, and it is not uncommon in the pnw/bc to certify ow in drysuits.

really it boils down to instructor incompetence to allow them to have used the drysuit without an inflator hose with secondary issues as far as supervision/lack of instruction.

 

[Vicko]

Rushing trough the course kills, if the instructor was worth anything a tragedy like this would have been stopped before the student stepped into water. Learning how the inflator hose works is done on dive number 1....

 

[oya]

It's worthwhile to note that of all the poor decisions and demonstrable lack of control that contributed to this tragedy (to the lengths of causing it), every single thing that happened taken independently is done by DMs, instructors, shops, and agencies around the world.

This was a conflagration of events, not unique incident. All the crappy things lined up just right to cause a fatality.

In truth, I have personally seen violations of standards and common sense exactly like much of this. Frequently. I have seen worse. But everyone goes home in the end so we don't hear about it.

Dive professionals should all strive to be better than this, avoiding normalisation of deviance and avoiding the temptation to read standards creatively to suit their purposes.

Divers should think more critically about their training or the people they are being guided by. If something seems a little off, it probably is, and it's OK to tell a DM to get stuffed.

That a family mourns a loved one and several people are going to struggle with the trauma of this for the rest of their lives is awful. But the greater problem is not a single accident. The problem is that the behaviors that led to it are generally acceptable to the community at large.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It's worthwhile to note that of all the poor decisions and demonstrable lack of control that contributed to this tragedy (to the lengths of causing it), every single thing that happened taken independently is done by DMs, instructors, shops, and agencies around the world.

This was a conflagration of events, not unique incident. All the crappy things lined up just right to cause a fatality.

In truth, I have personally seen violations of standards and common sense exactly like much of this. Frequently. I have seen worse. But everyone goes home in the end so we don't hear about it.

Dive professionals should all strive to be better than this, avoiding normalisation of deviance and avoiding the temptation to read standards creatively to suit their purposes.

Divers should think more critically about their training or the people they are being guided by. If something seems a little off, it probably is, and it's OK to tell a DM to get stuffed.

That a family mourns a loved one and several people are going to struggle with the trauma of this for the rest of their lives is awful. But the greater problem is not a single accident. The problem is that the behaviors that led to it are generally acceptable to the community at large.

People place undue trust in dive pros. We have NO IDEA as to how low the standards are to becoming one. One of the last open water courses I taught for a shop, I shared the pool with an IDC Staff Instructor working with DMCs. All of them were on their knees pretty much the entire time. My students were never on their knees, touching the bottom on rare occasion to stabilize themselves. They thought they were remedial open water students, not becoming dive pros. When I told them, there was a simultaneous and almost comical "da fuq?" expressions on all their faces.

I had my own incident when I started, but never finished, AOW with my open water instructor (which it turns out was full of standards violation). I was given a cylinder on the deep adventure dive that was leaking. "Oh you've got plenty of gas." This was at Cove 2 in Seattle which has an initial moderate slope, but takes a bit from 80 feet to 100 when following the rope line/border. We make it to 100 feet, I'm at less than 1000 psi when I started with 3400. I realized that I needed to get back to the surface by myself ASAP and that my instructor was a moron. So I ditched him and swam back, reaching the surface with 200 psi remaining. Sure, I could have shared gas with him, but I didn't trust him anymore. I had to take care of myself.

When I first shared this story, I was crucified by people on ScubaBoard.

I don't blame the student at all here. It wasn't her environment. She was following the guidance of the instructor. And that sadly resulted in her death.

And yeah, there are a lot of close calls from standards and/or common sense being flouted all the time. In my opinion, the requirements to becoming an instructor are just too low. And I'm pointing my finger at pretty much most of the WRSTC agencies.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

People place undue trust in dive pros. We have NO IDEA as to how low the standards are to becoming one. One of the last open water courses I taught for a shop, I shared the pool with an IDC Staff Instructor working with DMCs. All of them were on their knees pretty much the entire time. My students were never on their knees, touching the bottom on rare occasion to stabilize themselves. They thought they were remedial open water students, not becoming dive pros. When I told them, there was a simultaneous and almost comical "da fuq?" expressions on all their faces.

I had my own incident when I started, but never finished, AOW with my open water instructor (which it turns out was full of standards violation). I was given a cylinder on the deep adventure dive that was leaking. "Oh you've got plenty of gas." This was at Cove 2 in Seattle which has an initial moderate slope, but takes a bit from 80 feet to 100 when following the rope line/border. We make it to 100 feet, I'm at less than 1000 psi when I started with 3400. I realized that I needed to get back to the surface by myself ASAP and that my instructor was a moron. So I ditched him and swam back, reaching the surface with 200 psi remaining. Sure, I could have shared gas with him, but I didn't trust him anymore. I had to take care of myself.

When I first shared this story, I was crucified by people on ScubaBoard.

I don't blame the student at all here. It wasn't her environment. She was following the guidance of the instructor. And that sadly resulted in her death.

And yeah, there are a lot of close calls from standards and/or common sense being flouted all the time. In my opinion, the requirements to becoming an instructor are just too low. And I'm pointing my finger at pretty much most of the WRSTC agencies.

My open water and advanced open water courses were also full of standards violations. Like you ... how was I supposed to know? I learned it after the fact when I became a DM. My open water instructor was eventually suspended (may have even been expelled) from PADI for violations. My AOW instructor thankfully stopped teaching before she got caught. They were both awful. Thankfully I found some solid mentors/buddies and eventually hooked up with quality instructors for my rescue, divemaster and my technical training.