Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

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Subcooled

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Did you read the lawsuit that was filed?

I started to read but at some point I got other things to do... the text was rather long... and so I only commented on a comment. Apparently, this was the wrong solution.
 

wetb4igetinthewater

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I started to read but at some point I got other things to do... the text was rather long... and so I only commented on a comment. Apparently, this was the wrong solution.
I'm not sure how much you read but I did note that you edited your comment. I was about to address the part you deleted.
 

sabbe

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"Every agency" does not give this option.
I don't see anywhere in the SDI standards that says I can pre-order certs. In fact it says students must complete all classroom, confined, and OW requirements and then I can submit their info for a certification.

I can't issue a cert for a future date in the SDI system. It won't let me. So no, I can't pre-order certs for SDI/TDI.
Which, even during the height of the pandemic, took an average of one week to issue the certs I had started and was able to finish in PA.

I was never told I could pre-order certs and in fact doing so, seems completely unethical to me. And why would I spend money on a cert that the student may never finish for some reason. When I submit a cert it takes on average of 30 seconds to get a temporary card via email to me and to the student.

The longest it took to get a cert last year from SDI/TDI to the student was 10 days. The cert requires we provide the date all parts of the class were completed. Sometimes we don't know if a date will be the one we planned on. How can any ethical instructor say with 100% certainty that the person will absolutely complete the class on said date? Weather, work, illness, etc. all can affect the outcome as well as when a student gets to OW and for whatever reason, freaks out and quits.

You still issue a pre-ordered cert? That's nuts.

When I was a YMCA or SEI Instructor, we were never told we could or should pre-order certs. That's putting the cart before the horse. You don't issue a cert until the student completes the requirements. Once they do, then you send in the info. Doing it prior to that opens the door for abuse of the system, rushing people through, and in essence, lying about who you certified.

While I agree with you not all agencies can pre-order certifications its hardly unethical.

SSI lets me future date a certification. I can for example date a certification for next Tuesday and print a physical c-card. If the student completes all the skills this weekend we hand the student their card underwater during their final dive and they have it to take all the selfies they want, and can carry it on a plane if they're leaving on a dive vacation. Great customer service - achieved. If the student doesn't complete all the skills I don't hand them the card and I cancel the future certification with a mouse-click. If I wait until after the future certification date to try to cancel a certification its a littler more complicated - I would have to speak to a human on the phone.

Considering the shop prints the c-cards practically for free its insane other agencies charge around $50.

Sam
 

yle

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I just found this thread and read most of it. One aspect that I haven't seen addressed is the lack of experience of the instructor in the incident, i.e. the timeline from the instructor's IDC to the accident.

Dec 2019 - Jan 2020: instructor does her IDC and MSDT training in KL
Feb - Mar 2020: very cold in Montana... unlikely anyone is diving
Apr 2020: everything is shut down due to covid
May 2020 until ???: most is still shut down... not much diving happening
Nov 2020: the accident

It's very likely the instructor had very few, if any, classes prior to this one. Not that this excuses any of the many fundamental mistakes, but I bring this up to just add perspective to the situation. Freezing cold water, students in drysuits for the first time, daylight fading... and an instructor with little or zero practical experience working with students.
 

yle

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I haven’t taught an advanced class in 20 years, and I may have only done one in my life. Is Drysuit an adventure dive for Advanced, and is it a chapter in the Adventures in Diving paper manual?

Yes and yes. The chapter provides an overview of the use of a drysuit. The KR includes the questions "Describe how to add air to your dry suit underwater" and "How do you check for proper weighting when diving in your dry suit?"

Considering the KR is supposed to be reviewed with the instructor prior to the dive, so the instructor confirms the student understands the information, it seems these two questions are particularly relevant to the incident.
 

Omisson

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"Every agency" does not give this option.
I don't see anywhere in the SDI standards that says I can pre-order certs. In fact it says students must complete all classroom, confined, and OW requirements and then I can submit their info for a certification.

I can't issue a cert for a future date in the SDI system. It won't let me. So no, I can't pre-order certs for SDI/TDI.
Which, even during the height of the pandemic, took an average of one week to issue the certs I had started and was able to finish in PA.

I was never told I could pre-order certs and in fact doing so, seems completely unethical to me. And why would I spend money on a cert that the student may never finish for some reason. When I submit a cert it takes on average of 30 seconds to get a temporary card via email to me and to the student.

The longest it took to get a cert last year from SDI/TDI to the student was 10 days. The cert requires we provide the date all parts of the class were completed. Sometimes we don't know if a date will be the one we planned on. How can any ethical instructor say with 100% certainty that the person will absolutely complete the class on said date? Weather, work, illness, etc. all can affect the outcome as well as when a student gets to OW and for whatever reason, freaks out and quits.

You still issue a pre-ordered cert? That's nuts.

When I was a YMCA or SEI Instructor, we were never told we could or should pre-order certs. That's putting the cart before the horse. You don't issue a cert until the student completes the requirements. Once they do, then you send in the info. Doing it prior to that opens the door for abuse of the system, rushing people through, and in essence, lying about who you certified.

Jim,

This is exactly the sort of misdirection that muddies the water. In a lawsuit It also makes for great cross when self styled experts make claims about industry standards that are not true. Your whole argument is strawman. There is nothing unethical in Pre-ordering cards for enrolled students. PADI, SSI, PSAI, and CMAS all permit the instructor to order cards in advance, have them sent to the instructor, who issues them at the completion of training OR withholds and notifies the agency if the course goes incomplete. I think BSAC does this as well- but not 100% certain if they still do. There is no requirement to issue if the student doesn’t pass, and the only difference is you get to give the student the card they would normally wait several weeks for -when training is complete.

Unless you have ONLY BEEN an SDI Instructor, and ONLY for the last 10 years (since they made cert card printers available to SDI Dive Centers who wish to purchase them- WHICH IS WHEN THE SWITCH CAME) then you’d know that all the other major agencies permit this.

YMCA hasn’t issued a cert since the early 2000 when SEI was created to graft on the YMCA legacy after central YMCA jettisoned the program which was a shell after 1998- it had no market share and no modern training materials….. So YMCA/SEI program rules aren’t exactly benchmarks in the industry of 2020. The two largest agencies PADI and SSI, along with the largest dive federation, CMAS, all permit some form of Pre-ordering cert cards. Anyone intimating that Pre-ordered cards is somehow “sketchy” I’d being disingenuous at best.

My point was, “experts” in scuba- should know better…. the fact a cert card was generated in this tragic incident is of no moment… it is irrelevant to negligence claims and indicative of nothing about standards or industry norms. While It sounds dubious and may be attention grabbing at first blush- it actually isn’t- and making false or misleading claims in a lawsuit is the surest way to lose credibility- once counsel points out that the issue was a red herring- that it was not significant- jurors or judges start questioning what else counsel has been in error about…
 

Edward3c

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There is nothing unethical in Pre-ordering cards for enrolled students. PADI, SSI, PSAI, and CMAS all permit the instructor to order cards in advance, have them sent to the instructor, who issues them at the completion of training OR withholds and notifies the agency if the course goes incomplete. I think BSAC does this as well- but not 100% certain if they still do. There is no requirement to issue if the student doesn’t pass, and the only difference is you get to give the student the card they would normally wait several weeks for -when training is complete.
No BSAC do not issue qualification cards prior to a student completing a course. Never have done.

A dive qualification is issued by the Lead Instructor of the body that signed off the last component of a course, by signing the relevant Qualification Page in the student’s Qualification Record Book. A qualification card is issued if the student requests one from HQ.
 

kammel78

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My point was, “experts” in scuba- should know better…. the fact a cert card was generated in this tragic incident is of no moment… it is irrelevant to negligence claims and indicative of nothing about standards or industry norms. While It sounds dubious and may be attention grabbing at first blush- it actually isn’t- and making false or misleading claims in a lawsuit is the surest way to lose credibility- once counsel points out that the issue was a red herring- that it was not significant- jurors or judges start questioning what else counsel has been in error about…

Ok, so this whole issue has become something of a strawman. I agree, pre-ordering certs is irrelevant, however of interest to me was that the only people who received certs were people who could potentially testify for or against Snow and company. Maybe they did pre-order them and maybe they did preorder them for Bob and Linnea as well, and the suit omits that because it fits their narrative better, but it's interesting nonetheless. Could it have been some sort of weak attempt at a bribe? Who knows, but since we're not trying the case, speculate away...
 

Jwoobs

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I'm still flipping through it, but is there a cliff notes on the amendments?
Just the remarks about the other students still being issued certs for that dive?

Edit: Looks like there a many additional facts listed out, but this one is pretty damning, irrespective of if the credentials had been ordered beforehand.

293. In the weeks and months after Linnea’s fatal dive, PADI issued seven
certifications to three of the divers involved in the training courses with the
Gull Dive Defendants, based on the dives made at Seeley Lake on October
25, 2020 and Lake McDonald on November 1, 2020.
a. Seth Liston was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Peak Performance​
Buoyancy specialty certifications, presumably based on the unsuccessful
dive he made to 127 feet to assist in the recovery of Linnea’s body.
b. Nathan Dudden was awarded PADI’s Deep Diver and Advanced Open​
Water certifications, even though he did not participate in the search and
recovery dives, and he never entered the water at Seeley Lake.
c. Joel Wilson was awarded PADI Dry Suit Specialty Diver and PADI​
Advanced Open Water certifications, even though none of his dives met
PADI’s requirements to be considered training dives and he did not make
it to Glacier National Park to participate in the dives at Lake McDonald.
 
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