Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Wookie]

Indeed. Bob should have a clear conscious and take solace knowing he was the only one to try and save her. And I'll be clear again that I am in no way criticizing, Bob. The purpose of this subforum is to learn from others mistakes. Often we learn of situations here that even the dive training agencies don't know, or they are simply not prevalent enough to add to training. That is my focus with my past few posts.

Now, perhaps instructors in certain geographical areas cover similar scenarios. For example, if a diver is stuck due to kelp. Maybe shops that deal with that train their divers to ditch it all and go to the surface. Perhaps the training agencies should add to the curriculum that come life or death, that scuba rig can be left behind to get to the surface. And they should add in a rescue scenario with a trapped diver, be it nets, kelp or unditchable ballast, take the divers rig off.

Again, I am mentioning this for posterity and as a solution to that type of scenario.

MY OPINION is that nothing could have helped this situation in that it went TU from way prior to the very beginning. This is not a failure of the instructor, this is a failure of the dive shop owner to adhere to standards, resulting in the fatality of another in recent memory. This is a failure of the course director and Instructor Examiner, and I’ve met those that I wouldn’t buddy with. I’ve met some excellent ones as well. This is a failure of insurance companies who continue to sell insurance to bad shops, which costs us all money.

it’s a failure of the whole dive “industry” that allow crap instructors to continue to be made.

 

[Esprise Me]

The purpose of this subforum is to learn from others mistakes.

This thread started in A&I but was split off and moved to the diving litigation forum. I don't see a sticky explaining the particular rules of this forum; maybe a mod could offer some guidance? I had assumed we were supposed to limit our discussion to what was potentially relevant to the court case. So, a discussion of whether ditching her rig would have helped might be on-topic (especially since, IMO, it *wouldn't* have helped given all the weight in the drysuit pockets, which means the instructor's actions in putting those weights there created another obstacle to rescuing her *even if* Bob had thought up this obscure rescue technique in the moment, which makes the instructor's actions even worse.) But IDK about a discussion of ditching gear when entangled in kelp. Mods?

ETA: I do think this discussion is worth having--I think that, without blaming Bob, we can analyze what a person with perfect information and a high level of skill might have been able to do in this situation, or in similar situations. I don't think it would be remotely reasonable to expect him to check the pockets of her drysuit for weights, but having read this story and reflected upon it, I think I will do just that if I ever find myself trying to rescue someone who's sinking and doesn't have a weight belt or weights in ditchable pouches. I just don't want to create a mess of thread hijacks.

 

[boulderjohn]

This thread started in A&I but was split off and moved to the diving litigation forum. I don't see a sticky explaining the particular rules of this forum; maybe a mod could offer some guidance? I had assumed we were supposed to limit our discussion to what was potentially relevant to the court case.

Well, maybe others are more attentive than I. Reading these two sentences was the first I realized where the thread had been moved.

 

[BRT]

You and I trained on rashguard and board shorts.

Imagine my first time in a drysuit, no training, laying on the bottom in 95 feet with my 'nards completely crushed by a drysuit squeeze unable to reach the inflator to add some air (and buoyancy, and 'nard relief). I didn't panic, and someone came along and blew about half their air laughing at my fat ass laying on the bottom unable to move before they added gas.

Drysuit squeeze is a real thing.

I can't really imagine what it must be like at 100'. Drysuit squeeze gets real at 10'. As soon as I drop below the surface I start adding puffs of air.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

MY OPINION is that nothing could have helped this situation in that it went TU from way prior to the very beginning. This is not a failure of the instructor, this is a failure of the dive shop owner to adhere to standards, resulting in the fatality of another in recent memory. This is a failure of the course director and Instructor Examiner, and I’ve met those that I wouldn’t buddy with. I’ve met some excellent ones as well. This is a failure of insurance companies who continue to sell insurance to bad shops, which costs us all money.

it’s a failure of the whole dive “industry” that allow crap instructors to continue to be made.

No argument there, particular the last sentence.

Now I've been at a shop where they were using DMCs to act as CAs in open water courses. When I got a little farther through standards (as I was one of the DMCs) I said to the owner (an MI at the time), "Isn't this a standards violation?". His response? (and he later became a CD) "La! La! La! I'm not listening." Now thankfully nothing ever happened and that practice stopped. But had something happened, I would have been ruined financially as I'd have no insurance for this sort of thing.

And dive shops/centers do this frequently.

Being a shop employee and not a CA, Seth Liston is certainly going under the bus. I would bet that the owners are not going to cover him in their policy. I hope that the insurance provider finds a means to deny coverage of the owners. The only thing that is in his favor is that he's young, probably doesn't have much if any assets. As they say in my native Holland, you can't pluck a naked chicken. He'll may be forced to declare bankruptcy.

105. Upon information and belief, when Linnea relayed her diving experience to 22-year-old Liston, Liston failed to inform Linnea that his highest level of certification was Junior Open Water, an entry-level scuba diving certification for students aged 10-14 years, requiring only four open water dives to a maximum depth of 60 feet.

The owners were certainly negligent with not providing proper equipment, and providing the pool session for a proper orientation, etc.. The instructor shouldn't have proceeded due to the lack of pool orientation, the lack of proper equipment, the dramatic difference in temperature to what the young woman had previously experienced, and the time of day in which they started. That's even before people kitted up. It wouldn't surprise me if this became a criminal case for manslaughter. Along the lines of texting and driving that results in a fatality.

I can't really imagine what it must be like at 100'. Drysuit squeeze gets real at 10'. As soon as I drop below the surface I start adding puffs of air.

From personal experience, I can say it really sucks.

 

[Esprise Me]

I can't really imagine what it must be like at 100'. Drysuit squeeze gets real at 10'. As soon as I drop below the surface I start adding puffs of air.

Which makes it all the crazier to me that the instructor thought it was OK to dive without an inflator hose, using the BCD for buoyancy. Even with proper weighting/sufficient lift, the squeeze itself would've been an issue. How could anyone who has ever been in a drysuit not have noticed and remembered the visceral experience of the mild squeeze everyone gets as they descend before adding air?

 

[BRT]

No argument there, particular the last sentence.

Now I've been at a shop where they were using DMCs to act as CAs in open water courses. When I got a little farther through standards (as I was one of the DMCs) I said to the owner (an MI at the time), "Isn't this a standards violation?". His response? (and he later became a CD) "La! La! La! I'm not listening." Now thankfully nothing ever happened and that practice stopped. But had something happened, I would have been ruined financially as I'd have no insurance for this sort of thing.

And dive shops/centers do this frequently.

Being a shop employee and not a CA, Seth Liston is certainly going under the bus. I would bet that the owners are not going to cover him in their policy. I hope that the insurance provider finds a means to deny coverage of the owners. The only thing that is in his favor is that he's young, probably doesn't have much if any assets. As they say in my native Holland, you can't pluck a naked chicken. He'll may be forced to declare bankruptcy.

105. Upon information and belief, when Linnea relayed her diving experience to 22-year-old Liston, Liston failed to inform Linnea that his highest level of certification was Junior Open Water, an entry-level scuba diving certification for students aged 10-14 years, requiring only four open water dives to a maximum depth of 60 feet.

The owners were certainly negligent with not providing proper equipment, and providing the pool session for a proper orientation, etc.. The instructor shouldn't have proceeded due to the lack of pool orientation, the lack of proper equipment, the dramatic difference in temperature to what the young woman had previously experienced, and the time of day in which they started. That's even before people kitted up. It wouldn't surprise me if this became a criminal case for manslaughter. Along the lines of texting and driving that results in a fatality.



From personal experience, I can say it really sucks.

Have you actually descended to 100' without adding air to your drysuit?

 

[rsingler]

This is a very frustrating story.

At some point PADI needs to evaluate the Training Program in Key Largo. I am guessing which one Ms. Snow attended, I refuse to dive with them EVER again. DM's are dangerous, and lack knowledge and experience. My last dive with the shop, 3 years ago, the DM would have killed a older diver, if not for me recognizing the situation and providing assistance. I have run across their instructors on 3 occasions outside of their shop. I would never ever, let them train me, or my loved loves.

That said, they make a lot of dollars for PADI.

I am an Instructor trained at "that shop". I had been a Divemaster for a year before I went to IDC, but they required that I audit their DM program for free before taking the Instructor course that followed. The entire course was superb, and head and shoulders above my previous DM training.
The fault doesn't lie there. There is a bell curve in the student group and my class was no exception. But my in-water testing by the Examiner wasn't much of a challenge. If bad apples snuck through, that's where the problem lies. Could the school have refused to allow them to test? Yeah, but a not a good business model if the Examiner is willing to pass them.
Was it a mill? Only to the extent that it is a large organization. The quality of training that I received was superb.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Have you actually descended to 100' without adding air to your drysuit?

Yes.

 

[BRT]

Yes.

Why?