Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[CuzzA]

What agency teaches that scenario?

It's not perfectly outlined in PADI's open water manual. I just checked, haven't opened that book in years; however, I remember the emphasis from the instructor that the surface is of course the ultimate back up air source and you need to get back at some point, even if that means making a free ascent. If you are entangled and can't get free we are trained to remove the BCD. While it's not explicitly stated to relate to this type of incident, and this isn't an entanglement scenario, the manual states to remove the underwater victims weights and bring them to the surface. In this scenario that would include the BCD since the weight is there, somewhere. It does not state to leave the diver. There is certainly a lot of connecting the dots and my training experience is obviously not the same as others.

So I agree with your implication it is not well defined and of course the assumption from PADI is all of the pre dive safety steps were taken, which did not happen in this case.

 

[CuzzA]

It's asking a lot of anyone.

I know of a case in which a group of highly experienced divers did a search for a missing diver. The one who found the body tried to bring it to the surface (which was close at hand). For some reason the diver's gear (including a drysuit) had lost all gas, and he was unable to lift the body. He could have done all sorts of things to get that body up, as was done later by others, but this highly experienced diver was so thoroughly flustered that he could not think what to do. It is not a scenario we train for.

I don't disagree. I'm merely stating what should have been done from the comfort of my armchair.

 

[Jack Hammer]

It's easy to come up with solutions when not under the pressure of being in the situation. I think the student from the other class did everything he was able to and should only be commended, not criticized.

Btw, suit squeeze can be eliminated by flooding the suit. Unfortunately, that still wouldn't make it any less negative and it would just trade one problem for another. And I seriously doubt it would have made any difference at that point in the unfortunate outcome.

 

[boulderjohn]

As long as we are talking about things that could have been done from the comfort of the armchair....

It sometimes happens at the time of a dive that a very minor problem is discovered with a student's gear, the sort of problem an experienced diver would not worry about. In that case, an instructor might do the dive anyway, after swapping gear with the student. (You absolutely do not want the instructor too compromised to supervise the dive.) If the instructor in this case had been of that mind, she could have swapped gear with the student, used the BCD inflator hose to inflate her drysuit, and inflated her BCD orally. An instructor should be able to do a dive easily without a BCD inflator.

Note that I am not recommending that course of action.

 

[Esprise Me]

Would ditching the BC in this case have helped? The BC's lift capacity (29.2 lbs.) was pretty close to the amount of lead in the BC pockets (24 lbs.). Had Bob removed Linnea's BC, she would have been left with a drysuit with no air in it and 20 lbs. of lead in the drysuit pockets. I don't think that would've improved the situation.

 

[CuzzA]

Would ditching the BC in this case have helped? The BC's lift capacity (29.2 lbs.) was pretty close to the amount of lead in the BC pockets (24 lbs.). Had Bob removed Linnea's BC, she would have been left with a drysuit with no air in it and 20 lbs. of lead in the drysuit pockets. I don't think that would've improved the situation.

We don't know for sure, but you have to consider the negative weight from the tank, valve, reg, diving accessories and maybe a backplate. Bob could have ditched his weight as well. He made a buoyant ascent anyway.

 

[greeniguana]

One also needs to be quick on the inflator button, but a new diver isn't going to be aware of this.

I've been side tracked on descents before, by the time I realized I'm going down faster than I like I hear my OPV screaming.....

Thick wetsuits are really bad for this, and a drysuit with no inflator is probably similar.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It's not perfectly outlined in PADI's open water manual. I just checked, haven't opened that book in years; however, I remember the emphasis from the instructor that the surface is of course the ultimate back up air source and you need to get back at some point, even if that means making a free ascent. If you are entangled and can't get free we are trained to remove the BCD. While it's not explicitly stated to relate to this type of incident, and this isn't an entanglement scenario, the manual states to remove the underwater victims weights and bring them to the surface. In this scenario that would include the BCD since the weight is there, somewhere. It does not state to leave the diver. There is certainly a lot of connecting the dots and my training experience is obviously not the same as others.

So I agree with your implication it is not well defined and of course the assumption from PADI is all of the pre dive safety steps were taken, which did not happen in this case.

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What you are saying does make sense, but agencies don't teach this. There is certainly a lot of dot connecting required.

Now all WRSTC members require in confined water that students remove and replace their scuba kits underwater. No agency (that I know of, if someone knows of otherwise, please correct me but also send me the agency standards) requires that this skill is taught in open water. For warm tropical locations, it is not an issue. But with the use of thicker wetsuits, even dry suit, in temperate water, and even if weight belts are used, having a student who is most likely overweighted has significant risk (my opinion) of the student losing control of their scuba kit (with a steel tank) and corking to the surface while their scuba kit stays on the bottom.

If a cold water diver ditches their scuba kit underwater, they better be ready to flail out to slow their ascent. This is not taught in open water courses in open water. Expecting students to be able to safety perform these skills later in open water is a gamble.

We know there was no pre-dive safety check performed, therefore Bob may not have been familiar with the releases of Linnea's BCD. I can go further in what Bob might have done IF he had the training, equipment and experience, but Bob isn't an experienced rescue diver most likely. He did an impressive job for what he attempted and should feel no shame. While I'm sure he feels guilt in not being able to save this young woman's life, he shouldn't. It was simply a situation beyond his training, experience, and equipment. He should be commended for making a valiant effort.

 

[Esprise Me]

We don't know for sure, but you have to consider the negative weight from the tank, valve, reg, diving accessories and maybe a backplate. Bob could have ditched his weight as well. He made a buoyant ascent anyway.

No backplate; she was wearing a Scubapro Glide BCD, according to the complaint. A steel HP-100 tank would've been around 8-9 lbs. negative at the start of the dive (but nearly neutral once empty). But if you look at the pictures, it looks like the divers had aluminum tanks (notice the flat bottoms), most likely AL-80s, which are only about 2 lbs. negative when full (and 3-4 lbs. positive when empty, so possibly neutral by the time Bob was trying to rescue Linnea at least 5 minutes into the dive.) I doubt the reg could've been more than a couple pounds negative.

ETA: I found the length of the fatal dive in the complaint--11 minutes. They were at 60 feet when Linnea signaled for help, and ended up at 105 feet by the time Bob let go and went for help. I can easily believe an inexperienced, stressed diver could blow through 1/3 of an AL-80 in that time at that depth, getting the tank to neutral.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

Was Linnea still descending when Bob got to her? If so, that's a horrific complication for anybody, let alone a student.

I wouldn't advise a rescue diver in this situation to ditch their own weight. If they lose contact with the victim, they're going to be in an uncontrolled ascent. Ordinarily, ditching the victim's weight isn't a priority at depth. The idea is to control your and their ascent, though emphasizing getting them buoyant.

If this was a recovery and not a rescue attempt, I could see taking the time to remove lead from wherever it was hidden on the body. If there was ditchable weight in the BCD (a debated point, not clear in the suit) a quick thinker might have ditched it in a rescue.

But we've got an AOW student rescuing a grossly overweighted diver with a shrink-wrapped dry suit at depth in dim light and possibly both are descending and/or at a depth the rescuer has never seen. There comes a point where you have to say I can't complicate this for rescuers by becoming the second victim.

One of the things that surprised me as a student and again as an instructor is how much emphasis is put on the emotional well being of the rescuer. If Bob is out there lurking on Scubaboard, I'd tell him the same thing I tell Rescue students: There's no such thing as a bad rescue attempt if the rescuer is not another victim. You did something, and that's 100% better than nothing.

In reading reports about students dying, I ask myself "could this have happened to my student?" In this case, the answer is unequivocally no for the following reasons:

1. Nobody dives a dry suit with me unless they are experienced with it, certified for it, or had a pool session with me.
2. A student who couldn't inflate their suit isn't diving.
3. No matter how much lead the shop gave the student, I wouldn't let a woman with Linnea's build dive with 40 pounds in salt water, let alone fresh.
4. Lead never goes in dry suit pockets. It unbalances trim badly. I've slipped a few pounds in non-ditchable BCD pockets, but these divers still had 90% of their weight on a belt and ditchable weight pouches. And I've only done this if a pre-dive weight check had them under-weighted.

Damn this story makes me angry. And I don't swear.