Suit filed for Carbon Monoxide fatality - Washington state

[KevinNM]

If CO tainted tank air was that rare, it'd be different. One of the leading labs that tests scuba tank samples submitted found that 3% were contaminated. And you still don't want tank testing...??

Rare? There were two separate incidents in Albuquerque over the last few years where diesel fuel got mixed into the gas tanks at multiple gas stations. Gasoline and diesel fuel travel in the same physical pipeline, separated by a nitrogen bubble between a gasoline shipment and the following diesel shipment. Except when they aren't separated. I understand the pipeline company ended up paying to fix several hundred cars.

So is it contributory negligence if you don't conduct a proper analysis of the fuel going into your car and it turns out to be contaminated? Or is it reasonable for the end user to assume that someone selling you a product labeled as suitable for use is in fact suitable for that use and is not contaminated with something that makes it totally unsuitable for that use?

 

[Zippsy]

If CO tainted tank air was that rare, it'd be different. One of the leading labs that tests scuba tank samples submitted found that 3% were contaminated. And you still don't want tank testing...??

Based on your posts, you use one of your testers on all tanks that you use, right? What percentage of bad tanks do you get?

 

[DandyDon]

Rare? There were two separate incidents in Albuquerque over the last few years where diesel fuel got mixed into the gas tanks at multiple gas stations. Gasoline and diesel fuel travel in the same physical pipeline, separated by a nitrogen bubble between a gasoline shipment and the following diesel shipment. Except when they aren't separated. I understand the pipeline company ended up paying to fix several hundred cars.

At least the outcome such tainted fuel is not likely to be fatal.

Based on your posts, you use one of your testers on all tanks that you use, right? What percentage of bad tanks do you get?

I wouldn't use my limited experiences to try to paint a broad picture for the industry. The lab doing hundreds of tests a year finding 3% would be more reflective. But to give you an honest answer: I don't know the actual percentages since I started - a few in Roatan under 10ppm, a couple in New Mexico under 10, a few in Cozumel over 10, easily over 3% I think but I don't log dives well enough to say exactly.

 

[scagrotto]

Also bad air fills could be argued that 2 parties are at fault.

Kind of like if your new car stops running and you're injured in an accident when the airbag doesn't deploy you'd be partially at fault because you didn't investigate the ignition switch to be sure the design was sound? Sure, you can make that argument. You're unlikely to be successful, but if you sell somebody a Chevy with a faulty ignition switch (or contaminated air) it's about the only defense you've got.

You might consider googling warranty of merchantability and warranty of fitness. When you buy air from a dive shop (or 2% milk at the supermarket and regular unleaded gas at gas station) you don't get a little card telling you there's a 1 year warranty against defects, but you still get an implied warranty that it is what the manufacturer says it is, and is suitable for the purpose that a reasonable person would expect. The manufacturer has an obligation to make sure that their product is suitable for its intended purpose. The consumer generally has no obligation to conduct testing to discover hidden defects.

"32% Nitrox" that isn't fairly close to 32% might be considered unsuitable under that warranty, but anyone who is getting a nitrox fill has presumably taken a nitrox course and knows that the industry standard calls for the end user to check the mix themselves. At present there is no industry standard calling for users to test their gas for CO. Somewhere a bit further down the listing of threads in this forum you can find some info about a lawsuit against PADI alleging that their failure to teach OW students about checking for CO contamination makes them (partially) liable for injury (death, IIRC) to somebody who got a bad fill in Mexico.

 

[SeahorseDeb]

When I recertified in 2008, I had bad air in a tank. I knew air shouldn't taste that way! But I had dove before--I knew the difference. Whether the decendant knew or not.....I can't answer that. I told my instructor and he said there was nothing wrong with it. None of the other students mentioned it to me, but we didn't know each other. All of the tanks for the certification came from there until our second open water dive. That air was filled from another shop. I was to naive to know a tank could be tested. So dumb --it could've killed me, instead I put up with the headaches. I was later told that shop did have a compressor contamination problem. I switched shops after this and there were a couple other reasons. The shop no longer exists, and now when I fill up air at a place I haven't used before I look for their inspections and I test my tank. There have been no repeats, however I wish I had tested that tank. I wonder if that could be another contributing factor that old shop ended up in court with two lawsuits...one a wrongful death and the other left a diver paralyzed. Bad air is bad air whether I can taste it or not, there won't be a second incident for me...ever...again.

 

[nadwidny]

At least the outcome such tainted fuel is not likely to be fatal.

It is to the vehicle.

I wouldn't use my limited experiences to try to paint a broad picture for the industry. The lab doing hundreds of tests a year finding 3% would be more reflective. .

I've been involved with compressed breathing air testing about 2 years now and have done probably about 1000 high pressure (above 2200psi) tests myself, most of these done on electric compressors run by fire departments and oil field safety companies. I can't really recall any of those have any significant levels of CO (3ppm or more). However I've done about half a dozen on gas powered personal compressors and right now those tests are running at about 50% showing significant CO (up to 30ppm).

 

[Wookie]

I've been involved with compressed breathing air testing about 2 years now and have done probably about 1000 high pressure (above 2200psi) tests myself, most of these done on electric compressors run by fire departments and oil field safety companies. I can't really recall any of those have any significant levels of CO (3ppm or more). However I've done about half a dozen on gas powered personal compressors and right now those tests are running at about 50% showing significant CO (up to 30ppm).

Fire Departments and oil field support contractors have a vested interest in maintaining their equipment in the highest caliber of safety. They will lose their contract if they pump bad air. Because of this, they hire safety personnel to design and install air systems, they spend money on filters like they were free, and they probably bring you in quarterly or monthly to test.

Contrast this with the average dive shop owner. He asks on ScubaBoard how to install his compressor. He gets answers from you, me, Windyairman, and a host of other maybe less qualified folks who all have an opinion. He gets some PVC pipe and does the best he can to locate his intake someplace convenient, yet safe. He tests air from the compressor right after he changes his filters, he does not test banked air. He does not consider that his intake is located downwind from the chinese takeout hood vent next door. He does not invest in a CO monitor because that's another grand out of his pocket. Besides, his competition doesn't have one.

 

[DandyDon]

What Wookie said...!!

I've been involved with compressed breathing air testing about 2 years now and have done probably about 1000 high pressure (above 2200psi) tests myself, most of these done on electric compressors run by fire departments and oil field safety companies. I can't really recall any of those have any significant levels of CO (3ppm or more). However I've done about half a dozen on gas powered personal compressors and right now those tests are running at about 50% showing significant CO (up to 30ppm).

The risk of electric compressors producing CO internally are more common in warmer climes.

 

[Griffo]

I live in a country where it's almost a nanny state. Tanks have to be hydro'd ever single year, yet they don't force shops to install a $1k in-line tester for pretty much the most dangerous and common type of contamination. This makes no sense to me.
I also don't understand why all shops don't install them simply as insurance. Surely a $1k inline tester is cheaper than even the hassle of a single legal bill. I'm also suprised that the Insurance industry hasn't cottoned on and enforced the shops to have them just in order to be covered.

Having once had a supplied tank read 15ppm of CO on the surface, never again will I ever get lazy about testing every single tank with the Analox. My life isn't worth the 2 minute time saving.

 

[Lead_carrier]

Do you pay annual dues to the school where you took your IDC or to PADI? I can't speak for doctors but I know as an accountant I had to join the AICPA and pay annual dues to them, not my school, in order to continue to practice every year. I bet other professions are similar.

Does your school own and run AICPA? PADI sets the standards for the "school" that certified the instructor and requires dues be paid to PADI, the "school" that certified the instructor and supposedly oversees their instructors. SSI, NAUI, SDI etc, the same.