Subic Bay - 17th Jul - 2 divers missing on USS New York

[DevonDiver]

I'm trying to visualize this, and all of your description is helpful. But could I check on something? To me, looking at the drawings, it looks like the vessel is lying on her port side.... or is it that what looks to me like the bow is actually the stern (which would make the "lying on her starboard side" fit)?

I want to clarify this for myself because it will make the "more forward" or "further aft" entrance descriptions work better for me.

My bad. Was a typo. Have edited my post "vessel is laying on her port side".

What Leonard is describing is one of the "other" access points that I mentioned. There is a 2x1m hatchway into the gun deck that is located immediately behind the rear gun turret. Once through that access point, you are in the gun deck which stretches away aft (to the very rear of the boat) and stern (until it emerges in the 'broken open' section amidships). It also runs vertically from port to starboard, where there are a number of entrance hatches and side-gun turrets providing exits (some are very tight) onto the 'top' of the ship at 16-18m depth). The gun deck used wooden interior bulkheads, which are long rotted away, so the entire deck is open - except for a few structure

You can see the nature of these exits in the photo below. The ship had a number of smaller weapons along her sides. The guns in these positions are gone, so it permits some ambient light to illuminate that deck. After heavy rains, the low viz in that part of the bay wouldn't have allowed much light though..

View attachment 99240

Having entered through the hatchway described above, and found yourself in the expansive gun deck 'below' the rear gun, there are a number of options available for further penetration. A few very small hatches lead into the next deck level, which is the berthing/accommodation deck. You can also descend to the 'bottom' (port side) of the gun deck, where there is a passageway that takes you directly to the engine rooms.

Please forgive my very poor artistic and graphic skills; I have tried to illustrate a rough idea of the internal layout (Leonard/others, feel free to download that and improve it)...




There's some more description of the wreck here:http://www.spanamwar.com/NewYorkwreck.htm

Wikipedia History: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_New_York_(ACR-2)

More photos of the ship here:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/acr2/acr2.htm

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-usn/usnsh-n/ca2.htm

 

[rickthediver]

Ca-2

​

 

[leonard_yu]

The wreck is on its port side, this is for sure.

Please refer to the information on boardwalk dive center ( The one handle the recovery of bodies): Dive at Boardwalk Dive Center Official Website -

My drawing is also from them, to make it clear, I add some comments on it.

Also according to the survivor, they did not intend to go to the engine room, so I guess they just wanted to penetrate it in a very common route:



1. Red Line: enter from the stern like many wreck students would do when they begin their course, this is a big corridor where you can see lights come in from the left side, safe enough.

2. Orange Line: a U-turn at the same level, and enter the small corridor, here is totally overheard, where you can see no lights.

3. Yellow line: swim through the small corridor till you are somewhat blocked if you are in the middle.

4. Green line: going down about 3 meters, the permanent line to the engine room is right there

5 Blue line: if you are not going to the engine room, turn back a little, you can see the exit on your right hand.

I could not assume anything here, but something might happen when they are on the way from 4 to 5.

 

[rovic]

nevertheless, when diving a wrecked ship or a tunnel or even ocean caves, divers should use a spool of long neon strings to guide them out...that could've saved their lives. imo

 

[Blue Sparkle]

DevonDiver and leonard_yu: Very helpful descriptions and diagrams - thank you for taking the time.

 

[DevonDiver]

1. Red Line: enter from the stern like many wreck students would do when they begin their course, this is a big corridor where you can see lights come in from the left side, safe enough.

Yep. That 'corridor' is the gun deck. Light enters from the side-turrets (overhead) and several hatches through the armored top deck (just below and in front of the guns). The entrance you describe at the very stern of the ship is the final side gun turret.

2. Orange Line: a U-turn at the same level, and enter the small corridor, here is totally overheard, where you can see no lights.

It's hard to work out which corridor you mean by this. Is this the two ladder shafts that penetrate down into the small and regular engine rooms?

4. Green line: going down about 3 meters, the permanent line to the engine room is right there

Yep, that was what I refer to also. Just f'ward of the rear turret, on the bottom (port side) of the gun deck - is a small 2x2 shaft that runs down approx 3m, then turns f'wards and runs from there. It continues along f'wards, but there's a turn to the right that takes you to the engines. Pitch black, inches of silt and very confined. Descending into that shaft actually takes you below the level of the sea-floor/bottom outside the vessel.

5 Blue line: if you are not going to the engine room, turn back a little, you can see the exit on your right hand.

Yeah, this comes out of the gun deck immediately under the rear guns (if entering here, you can tie-off around the gun barrels themselves).

I could not assume anything here, but something might happen when they are on the way from 4 to 5.

From the news reports, it does indicate that the bodies were recovered in that area. This would place them next to the rear gun turret, inside the gun deck... or possibly even in the shaft/corridor that descends from the port side of the gun deck in that location.

From the diagram Rick provided:

 

[DevonDiver]

nevertheless, when diving a wrecked ship or a tunnel or even ocean caves, divers should use a spool of long neon strings to guide them out...that could've saved their lives. imo

Both were technically qualified divers. Their training should dictate that they are diving in double tanks. Dives at that location often go into deco - so divers will carry deco stages for that purpose. Typically these are clipped-off at the bottom of the shot-line, which is directly above the area in question.

As this is a technical penetration, a line will always be used. However, the existence of permanent lines in the 3 engine room entrances discussed may have meant that the divers were not deploying a guideline at that stage of the penetration. Some divers will start deploying their guideline from the ends of the permanent lines. I prefer to run my guideline from outside the wreck. Neither approach is right nor wrong - as, either way, a continual line is present from the diver to the exit.

 

[leonard_yu]

I put the U-turn on your dia ( blue arrows)

As on your dia, there are several places we can make a U-turn to the berthing deck, for those who came for the first dozens of times, they could go further in the gun deck and make the u-turn, and for those who has no intrest in the big space of gun deck, they just make the u-turn at the first place. ( actually there is another small hole before that you can already u-turn)

For the guideline, it is true that going with your own reel is safer. But in the engine room, it is narrow and complicated, if you can not find a good place to tie off your line, it might be dangerous when you reel out in a silted out condition ( because you have to reel out your own guideline while at the same time pay attention not to be tangled by the permanent line). For me, if I want to practice line laying, I would go all the way with my reel. Otherwise I would reel in the lock it on the permanent line, then follow the permanent line to the engine room. If I would like to explore more in the engine room, I would use my spool as a jump line.

 

[rovic]

is that a cross sectioned diagram layout?, if yes, are there only three exit points from the engine room?? goodness, that is really dangerous,it's basically an enclosed area.,one is crazy not to use guideline.

is the USS new york tighter than the Giannis D? start at 5:45--> ‪Scuba Diving the Giannis D ship wreck in the Red Sea, Egypt‬‏ - YouTube

 

[DevonDiver]

is that a cross sectioned diagram layout?,

Yes

if yes, are there only three exit points from the engine room??

No. There are 4 engine rooms. Each has various access points, some navigable, some not. We are discussing the incident and location on the 17th July, so only the relevant areas of the vessel are being mentioned.

goodness, that is really dangerous,it's basically an enclosed area.,

For a diver not trained in advanced/technical wreck penetration, it is very dangerous to penetrate beyond the gun deck.

The divers involved in the incident being analysed were both properly trained and well experienced.

one is crazy not to use guideline.

As mentioned, permanent guidelines are in place in the initial portions of the access routes described. Given their training, it is highly unlikely that these divers would have ventured anywhere beyond the gun deck without either laying a line, or following one of the permanent guidelines.

As Leonard mentioned; in the event of a silt-out (disturbance of silt laying within the wreck, causing absolute zero visibility) it is possible to lose a guideline, even if you are within close proximity of it. Technical wreck divers do train for this eventuality however; specifically with ingrained 'lost line' drills.

I do not doubt that this incident was a result of multiple contributing factors, of which reduced visibility/lost guideline was probably one, but not the only issue. Without further confirmed details, it is impossible to do anything other that wildly speculate; which I do not encourage.