Student lost - Seattle, Washington

[Bob DBF]

So your friend was an expert on the history of scuba instruction? Basic buoyancy and navigation have always been part of OW instruction. I don't believe deep diving and night diving were, but if you can show me that actual standards that show they were, I will stand corrected.

Since one only takes OW for the first time once, they have the impression that the class is the same everywhere.

My experience was similar to @Ayisha friend. The differences were that I had been diving for 17 years prior, it was a NAUI/PADI class, and my condition to receive a card had more to do with my demeanor and participation than skills that we both knew I had.

The class was geared to local diving on the NorCal coast, and therefore more rigorous than one would expect from a resort class. And my experience with those in my class and other students of his I met were fully capable of diving the coast with their buddy without professional assistance.

It all hinges on how serious the instructor takes their job.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It all hinges on how serious the instructor takes their job.

Not necessarily. There are new instructors who have not stepped put of their agency bubble and they teach to the lowest common denominator. I know I did when I started out. I EASILY could have been one of these two instructors. It took a bit of effort. I took the job as seriously when I was a shite instructor to now that I'm a less shitey instructor.

I do get criticised for recommending GUE so often, even by someone in this thread who basically copied GUE fundies with a distinctive specialty. That makes his snark f-ing hilarious.

That said, the bar of becoming an instructor is just way too low for most WRSTC members.

I still stand that ratios are broken in many instances, including this case. It hasn't been discussed or I missed it but night diving is an occasional significant stress factor for some individuals. Even diving during the day can be. I had a 6'5" 280 lb firefighter scared of that. I know some people who refuse to dive at night.

I'd never teach a night class of more than 3. Actually my night/limited viz÷nav is taught 1:1 as I will only teach that during the peak algae bloom with super bad viz. It's my responsibility to look ahead to prevent everything but a medical emergency.

 

[Bob DBF]

I took the job as seriously when I was a shite instructor to now that I'm a less shitey instructor.

Perhaps a poor choice of word, but I couldn’t find another. It’s hard for me see someone serious about their job ignore standards and safety, although I have met some people with rather large blind spots in their thinking.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Perhaps a poor choice of word, but I couldn’t find another. It’s hard for me see someone serious about their job ignore standards and safety, although I have met some people with rather large blind spots in their thinking.

You can still follow standards and still be unsafe. 4:1 DSD/try scuba is one example.

Willful disregard to already low standards is a different matter.

 

[Stratum0]

You can still follow standards and still be unsafe. 4:1 DSD/try scuba is one example.

Willful disregard to already low standards is a different matter.

I really don't wanna get into it in this thread because this isnt the place, but from personal experience, 4:1 DSDs can absolutely be done safely with the right conditions.

But to your point of staying within standards and being unsafe.... Thats sort of an oxymoron.
At least in PADI in reference to ratios, under general standards and procedures, you must "use sound judgement and conduct a risk assessment before determining ratios. Unless otherwise noted, ratios are absolute maximums". So a 4:1 DSD in your example might be breaking standards depending on the risk assessment.

I could continue to site references where falling under the maximums would still be breaking standards if you'd like.


But again, thats not the purpose of this thread.

 

[BRT]

Obviously no evidence at this point that the lack of a light had anything to do with the death, or that the death wouldn't have happened if someone had noticed when the victim separated from the group.

 

[rjack321]

Obviously no evidence at this point that the lack of a light had anything to do with the death, or that the death wouldn't have happened if someone had noticed when the victim separated from the group.

We pretty much know nothing (not a surprise) except that it took an oddly long time to find her. This is in probably one of the most dived spots and shallow depths in all of Puget Sound.

There were 2 other unrelated swimming fatalities on the same day btw. One in Lake WA, one in Gig Harbor, was a difficult weekend for public safety divers around here.

 

[DandyDon]

4:1 DSDs can absolutely be done safely with the right conditions.

Sorry, but I am glad that I did not start with you in such a group. I had my own DM or Inst for a buddy for mine. If my daughter was interested, I wouldn't want her dive any other way on a discover dive.

If one discover diver has issues requiring Inst attention, the rest of the class is on their own. I remember some kids dying that way a few years back.

 

[Stratum0]

Sorry, but I am glad that I did not start with you in such a group. I had my own DM or Inst for a buddy for mine. If my daughter was interested, I wouldn't want her dive any other way on a discover dive.

Are we talking DSD in the pool or are we talking the optional open water dive in the DSD?
Those are two very different things for me.

4 are very manageable in the pool, but if you're doing the optional open water dive that would be much more difficult.
Having never done an optional OW dive as it would not be safe to do so here in Seattle, I couldn't say how I would organize that, but I would more than agree that 4 would probably be too much for one instructor up here.

 

[DandyDon]

Are we talking DSD in the pool or are we talking the optional open water dive in the DSD?
Those are two very different things for me.

Yeah, I'd think so. My discover dives were in the Caribbean, and the boy scout fatalities who came to mind were in a lake when an Inst took one up, leaving the others below.