Struggling in midwater

[dsteding]

Setting the "refresh" or data rate to as short as possible is a big help.

I've noticed that with my Vyper. Problem is, it looks like the only way to change the default rate is using Suunto's software, I use aftermarket stuff on my Mac.

Anyone know what the Uwatec/OMS bottom timer default sampling rate is?

(sorry for the small hijack . . . )

 

[redrover]

Geee, if you Continuous Divers have this problem is there any hope for Batch Divers like me?

By jimminies, is it possible I’m not as retarded as I thought I was!!!!
I thought I was supposed to be so perfectly neutral and time my breathing with the surge kick; 10’ hangs were very relaxing and I’d be dozing off.

I seem to manage to be able to….sorta….takes focus on breathing, can’t relax in much of a surge – was feeling like I was loosing ground this winter – rougher water Iguess.
I thought I was cheating or using a crutch by checking my computer…as frequently or more as Andy said to see if what felt stable or shift was in fact true. Can’t do it without that training wheel above 20’, not a lot of recovery time/room with that dang heavy surge.

LOL I had a good self-realization last year when thinking I wasn’t so reliant on visual clues. Out over blue dive objective; 1st qualify I could without visual clues reach and hold set depth. Doing fine all the way up to 15”, all relaxed, bored and twiddling my thumbs when a huge pod of Spinner Dolphins rose up from under and engulfed me. The looong drawwwn ouuut gasp of pleasure shot the whole depth maintenance to he11 and couldn’t find neutral again. Great little surprise multitask capable awareness bubble bust.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I found one thing really mucked with my mid-water skills...

Sunnto gauges have adjustable "update" rates. Default is 20 seconds - that can be way too long. By the time the depth number has changed you are now off your stop and you're continually "chasing the correct depth over compensating and such.

Setting the "refresh" or data rate to as short as possible is a big help.

Lots of digital gauges update to slowly to be very good for controling position for just that reason. By the time the gauge tells you that you are moving, you may have already been moving for some time, gone some distance and have picked up some speed. And yes, you end up over correcting, then going the other way and the next thing you know you're a yoyo. That's another difference between diving and flying.

I use a depth gauge to make sure the depth that I'm holding is the correct depth but I need to know that I'm moving before my depth gauge tells me so. An analog gauge can help here depending on the resolution you have at the depth that you're at.

 

[rjack321]

You can reset the Suuntos to 10 seconds.

I now have an Aladin tech which seems similar, but it isn't noted in the manual exactly what it is.

Uwatec Bottom timers seem to be on the order of a couple seconds.

 

[TSandM]

I thought, when we discussed this before, the conclusion was that the "sampling rate" is the rate at which data is sampled for storage (eg. what you can print out later), but that the rate at which the gauge adjusts its reading is far faster. At any rate, I do know that staring at a fixed visual reference is QUITE different from watching a gauge; seeing even a few inches of movement immediately tells me what I need to do to correct it, way before the gauge has registered a change.

One thing I did get from my Rec 2 class with Joe Talavera was the idea that there is a buoyancy "window" of correction with breath, and once you are out of that window, you MUST use other means of correction. In other words, if you've gone up more than a foot or so, you will HAVE to dump air from the wing or the drysuit; breath alone will not stop you fast enough to prevent further ascent. This has helped with buoyancy in general, but I need to get much better at KEEPING myself within the "breath" window.

 

[Peter Guy]

Mike, I didn't mean to imply that instrument flying and instrument diving are identical --they are not (and for some of the reasons you said). But I do believe the techniques taught in instrument flying are what is needed for "instrument diving" -- that is, not fixating on one thing (task, instrument, etc.) and letting your mind absorb the information from all of the various sources while still doing some other task.

Question regarding not having an "attitude" indicator while diving -- my compass (Suunto) IS an attitude indicator to some extent in that if it is level it is an "artificial horizon" and if it is not level, I can tell. And of course we always have our bubbles to tell us where "up" is (unlike sitting in a plane -- at least I hope you don't have bubbles!).

 

[ClayJar]

I thought, when we discussed this before, the conclusion was that the "sampling rate" is the rate at which data is sampled for storage (eg. what you can print out later), but that the rate at which the gauge adjusts its reading is far faster.

That is correct. I have a Suunto Gekko with a fixed 30-second sampling rate for the log, but the display updates each second. (This is easily demonstrated.)

One thing I did get from my Rec 2 class with Joe Talavera was the idea that there is a buoyancy "window" of correction with breath, and once you are out of that window, you MUST use other means of correction. In other words, if you've gone up more than a foot or so, you will HAVE to dump air from the wing or the drysuit; breath alone will not stop you fast enough to prevent further ascent. This has helped with buoyancy in general, but I need to get much better at KEEPING myself within the "breath" window.

I wrote a very rudimentary "diver simulation" that just diplays raw numbers but simulates buoyancy (lift and weight), BC air, and breath. It was all fudge factors and simplifications, but it responded just like you describe (which I matched to how I dive).

The crux of the matter is that buoyancy is an unstable equilibrium which you constrain with your breathing. Once you cross your inhalation/exhalation limit, it cascades. (It's like balancing on one foot. You can lean a little and control it by contorting, but once you cross a critical point, the only way to get back in balance is to hop to a new baseline -- in diving, you do that by adding/releasing air.)

 

[Diver0001]

Okay, maybe this isn't all that basic . . .

My current challenge is midwater skills. At this point, I'm pretty okay IF I have a visual reference for vertical and depth (knotted spool will do) AND I'm not task loaded. I can hang at 20 or 10 feet until the cows come home if nobody makes me DO anything.

Deprive me of a visual reference, or task load me much at all, and I should enter a championship yo-yo contest.

What I'm asking is: Does anybody have any ideas, other than just continuing to try and fail, as to how to develop these skills? Right now, we're working with the idea of setting a good visual reference (bolt snap on upline) and settling there, and once settled, attempting something task-loading, like shooting a bag. (If I can master getting the spool out of my new dry suit pocket without dropping it, that will help ) But if anybody has any great ideas for exercises or sequences that help develop this stuff, I'm all ears (Rick, Thal, anybody?)

Everyone seems to be falling over each other in the rush to give you advice so I hope this doesn't get buried in the fray..... I also haven't read any of the other replies yet so I hope I'm not repeating someone else....

But....

If you don't *have* a visual reference you can *make* one.

R..

 

[rjack321]

That is correct. I have a Suunto Gekko with a fixed 30-second sampling rate for the log, but the display updates each second. (This is easily demonstrated.)

Not for all Suuntos. Some sample for data logging and update their screens at the selected rate. 20 seconds was the default out of the box rate for my 2001 model year Vyper. They even advertised the slower rate as a battery saving feature in the manual.

I had to use the software to change it. And yes it made a huge difference in my mid-water stop capability.

I don't think the Gekko has a gauge mode and that may be one huge programming difference between models right there.

 

[TSandM]

Rob, are you talking about shooting a bag? Shooting a bag in midwater in the dark is one of the things that makes me into a children's toy again . . . Kirk's a great visual reference for depth, in the daytime when I know where "up" is. At night, I can think I'm separating from him horizontally when it's really vertically and I don't figure it out until it's too late to fix.

We were actually talking about vertical references, and I realized that one of the things that was hard about last night was that I was trying to do the bag shoot with my light deployed. Had I butt-clipped it as I usually do, it would hang down and be a reference for vertical that would be well within my visual field.

I'd sure like to figure out how to know where I am without something to look at, though. Maybe it's not possible.