Stop the Development Mentality

[bwerb]

oh yea? Well, our Marines are getting dropped like flys and they cannot return fire unless they know the identity of the shooters.... but don't worry, wouldn't want to upset any terrorists. How come you aren't boo hooing about the fine men who being sniped from afar by cowards too spineless to do anything but blow up civilians?

Why don't you put yourself on the line---for whatever you believe?

I know that political conversation is really limited here so I'll tread carefully.

I don't understand why a criticism of a specific government act/policy leads to a challenge of why am I not criticising something else? It's the second time in this thread I've been told that there is something else or other things I should be "commenting on" before I should make a criticism.

There are billions of things wrong with this world, many of them are not connected and you don't have to solve ALL the problems of the world at once before you are entitled to try to work on one specific problem.

America is a great country, the constitution and the ammendments to the constitution define what our freedom is...it is what we are fighting for...it literally is "the idea of what it means to be American". When one individual is allowed to decide which laws they will obey, which ones they will suspend and which freedoms they and they alone can control, then the idea of America is damaged for all citizens. The suspension of habeus corpus this week is one such step down that road and is well worth criticizing.

 

[Thalassamania]

I took Econ at UC Berkeley, I guess you could make the same mindless argument about all the courses<G>. Koombaya baby!

 

[Cacia]

Bwerb, yes, most of my friends agree with you.

I just never hear anybody voicing any outrage against our enemy here.....

All your points well taken though.

Honestly, right now, we are the only ones really obeying the rules and we are handicapping our men an women over there. I feel the need to voice that.


Berkeley Thall? Do you think regional attitudes helped shape yours?

Just curious...not many conservatives out of Berkeley, or are there some?

Seriously, enlighten me. I am fascinated on how our politics are a function of our region more than our IQ's. I will check back after my bike ride, sure you will have some great thoughts for me to ponder. seriously. Hey--I listen to you on lots of subjects.

You must know some of these guys are living next door to men shot yesterday--not VietNam, not ten or twenty years ago, yesterday. You have to allow us our pain.

 

[bwerb]

Cathrine,

I fullly agree with you that often the "rules of engagement" are a literal hobbling of the effectiveness of the mission the military has been given. It's like playing a game in which you have to follow the rules but everyone else can do whatever they want.

If at the end of the day part of the mission is "to bring freedom to Iraq" then to quote Russ Feingold, speaking in regards to the signing of the bill which "allows the government to seize individuals on American soil and detain them indefinitely with no opportunity to challenge their detention in court." and to quote Pat Leahy who noted "It is a sad day when the rubber-stamp Congress undercuts our freedoms, assaults our Constitution and lets the terrorists achieve something they could never win on the battlefield."

I see it as having a direct connection to the troops overseas...what does it gain America to try to export freedom when the very basis of this freedom is literally being written out of the country's laws at home?

 

[mrjimboalaska]

Bwerb,
I am going to jump in here one more time and then I'll stop......

Russ Feingold, speaking in regards to the signing of the bill which "allows the government to seize individuals on American soil and detain them indefinitely with no opportunity to challenge their detention in court." and to quote Pat Leahy who noted "It is a sad day when the rubber-stamp Congress undercuts our freedoms, assaults our Constitution and lets the terrorists achieve something they could never win on the battlefield."

Since when has a NON U.S. Citizen EVER had Constitutional Rights? Why should they?
Especially if they are suspected of covert ops against the people (thats my family) of the U.S?
LINE ITEM VETO......other Presidents have had the ability.......
I hate to say this, but the Terrorists are winning, due to the divide of America, due to
LIBERALISM
"United we stand, divided.........."

 

[bwerb]

Non US citizens don't have constitutional rights but the definition of Unlawful Enemy Combatant has been broadened by this act to include American citizens on American soil...that's why you should be concerned.

The definition allows the president to declare anyone a UEC...including you! Let's say you are critical of the current administration...suddenly YOU are giving aid to the enemy.

To quote Scott Horton:

Before Congress recessed, it passed, amid much criticism, the Military Commissions Act (MCA). The Act has consequences for citizens and non-citizens alike. Among it's worst features, it authorizes the President to detain, without charges, anyone whom he deems an unlawful enemy combatant. This includes U.S. citizens. It eliminates habeas corpus review for aliens. It also makes providing "material support" to terrorists punishable by military commission. And, once again, the military commissions procedures allow for coerced testimony, the use of "sanitized classified information" (where the source is not disclosed), and trial for offenses not historically subject to trial by military commissions. (Terrorism is not historically a military offense; it's a crime.) Finally, by amending the War Crimes Act, it allows the president to authorize interrogation techniques that may nonetheless violate the Geneva Conventions and provides future and retroactive immunity for those who engage in or authorize those acts.

I think people are getting too tied-up in seeing this act as specific to protecting us from the terrorist threat at home without recognizing that YOU can now legally be declared a terrorist with no chance of appeal.

Forgive me if I have a problem with that.

 

[Hank49]

Seriously, enlighten me. I am fascinated on how our politics are a function of our region more than our IQ's. .

I thought politics were more a function of age. Wasn't it Churchill who said, "when your in your 20s, if you're not a liberal, you have no heart. When you're in your 50s and beyond, if you're not conservative, you have no brain".

 

[friscuba]

Back to the original post...

Jean-Michel Cousteau has signed on to participate in the development of an ocean side resort on the Big Island. Don't know if his people would ever push for a development moratorium.

 

[bwerb]

The whole black/white democrat/republican united we stand/divided we fall, for us or against us series of false dichotomies are doing tremendous damage to America.

A dumb idea is a dumb idea no matter where it comes from. As citizens of a free country it is our democratic duty to openly question what is going on, to openly challenge laws and legal loopholes which are created which allow power to shift from "we the people" to the whims of lone individuals (who openly declare that they alone will decide what is law). Don't let the rhetoric cloud your ability to recognize that sacraficing liberty for security has always been one of the touchstones of incredibly non-democratic societies.

If there is a morotorium on discussion for the sake of "all pulling in the same direction"...we can't really complain when we discover that no-one questioned where it was we were heading and where we've managed to end-up.

 

[bwerb]

Ok...I'm done,

Back on topic...

Is there a local group of some kind which has been tracking the damage/damages caused by some of the local hotel development. I'd like to be better informed and was hoping someone could direct me accordingly.

So much of the time it seems that the surface of the ocean truly is the divide between out of sight and out of mind. As divers, this stuff is within our sight.