Starting Out Too Fast?

[ciret]

I just got certified OW PADI. I am very very comfortable in the water, always have been as long as I can remember. Was a swimming instructor at the Y when I was 14, was on the HS swim team, Red Cross WSI, etc. . . My instructors gave me 1 on 1 instruction (I was the only student at the time ). The instructors have a great deal of experience, on has been diving for almost 40 yrs, the other two are in the 20-25 yr range. I started with a Discover SCUBA course and decided since the opportunity was there I should take it. (I'm on a work assignment on the south west coast of Puerto Rico) I did really well on all of the course work and pool work. Did the open water dives with no trouble. The instructors all commented on how well I was doing, and they wished they had more students like me. I'm not saying this to pump my ego, I'll get to the significance in a minute. So, I go in my first "real" dive at a fantastic site on the Guanica Wall, the drop off begins at around 50 ft. I'm buddied up with my instructor, who is also DMing this dive, there are 2 other divers. We go over the edge, it's amazing, beautiful coral, fish, sponges, lobster, crabs, I could go on and on. . . Maybe 10-15 min into the dive I hear my instructor rattling to get my attention, they signal me to come up. I check my depth gauge and start up, I was at 95 ft. I didn't have any problems, ears ok, buoyancy control good, basically everything is good. We continue the dive at 50-75 ft, and gradually went shallower, did a 3 minute safety stop. Had a total bottom time of 40 min, max depth of 95. Did a 1 hr 10 min SI. Then did a 2nd dive on a gorgeous reef. Max depth 50 ft, bottom time was 46 min. Now, my first question. My rental regulator did not have a computer, I was diving on my buddy's computer (the instructor). I only have a flat table and did not track my depths and times so I couldn't calculate pressure groups or residual nitrogen. When I asked about it I was told it was OK because we stayed together and took a long surface interval. I trust these people, I took a long time (3 months) to do the cert course because of my work schedule and got to know them pretty good. But, I’m also a pretty safety conscious, quality minded person. You know the type always wear my seat belt and always have, make every one riding with me put on there belts, mow the grass with safety shoes, always wear safety glasses. . . I went diving with them again this morning. I used a reg with an integrated computer, but I’m not real good with it, we actually worked more with tables during the course. So, I basically ended up diving on the my buddy/DM’s computer. We talked about that and there didn’t seem to be a great deal of concern. It was a small group again, just 2 other divers. We did another wall dive (it was awesome) and a reef (it was good too). 1st dive went to a max of 104 ft, bottom time was 38 min, 2nd dive after a 54 min surface interval, went to 57 ft, with a bottom time of 42 min.
Now, my big question is am I going too fast? I’m planning on diving tomorrow, what do I do? If the staff is confident that I can go below 60 ft, should I be concerned? I’ve read a lot of posts here and agree that experience is important. And I think I’m getting a lot of good experience fast, but too fast? I know the instructors discussed letting me go that deep and all felt I could handle it. What are the risks? Just looking for some more input.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought the background was important.
Thanks for your feed back.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

Better stand by for some opinions, ...this should be good.


Since you asked, and since you are a safety-oriented kinda guy, then yes, IMO you're going too fast. As a brand new OW diver, 104' is a long way down. Everyone is comfortable when everything is going right. Being comfortable and deep when everything is going right is not especially challenging. When things go wrong, however, they go wrong fast. Below 100' your time available in which to respond safely diminishes. You can do everything right, and things can still go wrong - it doesn't have to be 'you' that 'causes' the problem. As a new diver, you may not be well-practiced at responding rapidly and effectively to sudden problems.

First, since you asked, it would be wise to limit your first ten dives or so to 60' so that when problems occur you gain your experience there rather than below 100'.

Second, plan your own dive and dive your own plan. If you don't own your own computer, rent one, buy one, or dive tables. Don't ever dive "trust me" dives using someone else's computer. It's simply a really bad idea. Kinda like driving drunk and not wearing your seatbelt.

Dive safe.

 

[jbd]

I just got certified OW PADI. I am very very comfortable in the water, always have been as long as I can remember. Was a swimming instructor at the Y when I was 14, was on the HS swim team, Red Cross WSI, etc. . . My instructors gave me 1 on 1 instruction (I was the only student at the time ). The instructors have a great deal of experience, on has been diving for almost 40 yrs, the other two are in the 20-25 yr range. I started with a Discover SCUBA course and decided since the opportunity was there I should take it. (I'm on a work assignment on the south west coast of Puerto Rico) I did really well on all of the course work and pool work. Did the open water dives with no trouble. The instructors all commented on how well I was doing, and they wished they had more students like me. I'm not saying this to pump my ego, I'll get to the significance in a minute. So, I go in my first "real" dive at a fantastic site on the Guanica Wall, the drop off begins at around 50 ft. I'm buddied up with my instructor, who is also DMing this dive, there are 2 other divers. We go over the edge, it's amazing, beautiful coral, fish, sponges, lobster, crabs, I could go on and on. . . Maybe 10-15 min into the dive I hear my instructor rattling to get my attention, they signal me to come up. I check my depth gauge and start up, I was at 95 ft. I didn't have any problems, ears ok, buoyancy control good, basically everything is good. We continue the dive at 50-75 ft, and gradually went shallower, did a 3 minute safety stop. Had a total bottom time of 40 min, max depth of 95. Did a 1 hr 10 min SI. Then did a 2nd dive on a gorgeous reef. Max depth 50 ft, bottom time was 46 min. Now, my first question. My rental regulator did not have a computer, I was diving on my buddy's computer (the instructor). I only have a flat table and did not track my depths and times so I couldn't calculate pressure groups or residual nitrogen. When I asked about it I was told it was OK because we stayed together and took a long surface interval. I trust these people, I took a long time (3 months) to do the cert course because of my work schedule and got to know them pretty good. But, I’m also a pretty safety conscious, quality minded person. You know the type always wear my seat belt and always have, make every one riding with me put on there belts, mow the grass with safety shoes, always wear safety glasses. . . I went diving with them again this morning. I used a reg with an integrated computer, but I’m not real good with it, we actually worked more with tables during the course. So, I basically ended up diving on the my buddy/DM’s computer. We talked about that and there didn’t seem to be a great deal of concern. It was a small group again, just 2 other divers. We did another wall dive (it was awesome) and a reef (it was good too). 1st dive went to a max of 104 ft, bottom time was 38 min, 2nd dive after a 54 min surface interval, went to 57 ft, with a bottom time of 42 min.
Now, my big question is am I going too fast? I’m planning on diving tomorrow, what do I do? If the staff is confident that I can go below 60 ft, should I be concerned? I’ve read a lot of posts here and agree that experience is important. And I think I’m getting a lot of good experience fast, but too fast? I know the instructors discussed letting me go that deep and all felt I could handle it. What are the risks? Just looking for some more input.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought the background was important.
Thanks for your feed back.

First off let me compliment you for posting your concerns--it shows you are thinking.
Having said that though I am going to be a bit critical. I'm not clear as to what the planned depth was for the first dive but I get the impression that the divers you were with were above you some distance when they signalled you to come up from 95 ft.
If the planned depth was 60 ft and you ended up at 95 feet inadvertently then you were 1.) not situationally aware 2.) did not have good buoyancy control.

When you are diving tables you must have the ability to track both depth and time. You didn't do this for your dive. Additionally if your buddy was above you and signalled you to come up from 95 ft then his computer was not tracking your dive.

My impression is that you have slipped away from your safety mindedness with these particular dives. One thing I think you should do is ask yourself Would I make these dives on my own with a buddy of similar experience as myself? If the answer is no, then you are moving too fast. Each of us is ultimately responsible for our own safety regardless of who is with us. If you wouldn't make the dives on your own then you are simply doing trust me dives that you truly aren't preapred to deal with if something goes wrong.

As I said I'm not clear about planned depths and actual location of you and your buddy/dive group so feel free to clarify.

 

[ciret]

Wow, thanks for the quick response.
Doc,
That's what I kind of thought, I think I got caught up in the excitment of a new and fascinating activity.
One of the things I think was not covered really well was dive planning. I think that may be because it’s a resort and most of the people come and expect to be guided around.
I’ll get there early tomorrow and talk to the DM/Instructor about my concerns.

jbd,
We were pretty close together, 3-5 ft, DM was not directly above me, we had been following the contour of the drop off. As I mentioned above we haven’t done a very good job of discussing dive planning. I will bring that up in the morning.
My wife commented that I seemed pretty confident about what I was doing. And I replied that I felt confident with the instructor as my buddy, but wouldn’t do these dives with a buddy I had pick up on a dive boat and didn’t know.
I know I am ultimately responsible for my own safety, used to do a lot of rock climbing and moderately extreme skiing. Same thing there, especially climbing, you have a buddy and if you have to know there experience level and where your going. And again you are ultimately responsible for your own safety.

Thanks again for the feedback, I look forward to checking back here for info often.

 

[RP Diver]

IMO, if you are diving with a computer, then you need to learn to use it, but you also need to be planning your dives with the tables and be aware of where YOU are as far as tissue saturation and pressure group and NDL is concerned. Relying on your buddies gauges and/or computer to determine your profile is a recipe for disaster. I also think you need to get your bouyancy and gauge use under control before you do any more deep diving, and then I'd recommend that you do some structured training for it.... take a deep or AOW class. But get your basic skills under control first.

Although I didn't have the same sort background in surface swimming that you have, I too was a natural diver right from the start, and I was complimented by my instructor for ease with which I learned the skills. But I was still strongly encouraged to keep practicing those skills at every opportunity, not because I didn't do them correctly, but to ingrain them as habits, to make hitting my bouyancy or clearing my mask, etc., as natural and unconcious as breathing. In the long run that sort of practice will pay off, so that when you start taking on other tasks on a dive, that basic stuff won't be forgotten because of task overloading.

 

[ciret]

Got up this morning planning to go diving, but I was hopelessly stuffed up. So, rather than try to force things, I opted to stay home. However, my future diving plans will include more discussion of the dive plan. So far the dive plan discussions have focussed on site aspects, what natural land(sea)marks to watch for, where we might see different creatures and such. I will make sure to discuss depth and time and allow for some shallower water skill practice time. Maybe head for the safety stop early and practice hovering, alternate air source use. . . I have the mask clearing thing down cold, I have a mustash and even with it trimmed down to give me some smooth seal area I end up clearing every 10 to 15 minutes. Is that higher than average? I've reqad some posts that mention back finning, how's that done? Any other skills you guys would recommend?
Thanks for the input.

 

[dilligaf368]

If You look at the USN diving manule....which is not as lenient as PADI. the following happened to a Navy Master diver:
Diver went to 104fsw bottom time of 38min right there You would have been on the 110' at 40min bottom time which You would have had a stop of 2 min at 10' and leaves You on a group "L" without a safety stop! Thats just doing the tables. THEN 54min Surface Interval puts You on a "J" catagory. Surface interval is 54 min the N2 is 70min at 60' group "J".
Second dive was 57'sw for 42min. Using Group J to (60) the N2 PLUS the bottom time is 96min. The table is at 10' incriments and so that new depth is 60' for 96 min. The DECOMPRESSION TIME AT TEN FEET IS: 10sw for 14 minutes! How does that square with all that safety stuff You were talking about!
The reason You "got away" with that is because the Computers now days are computing extreemly fast and will figure between the tables. If You were using the PADI tables You would have MORE decompression time than the USN tables. You just slipped by not getting bent on Your first few dives.
I don't think You are ready for advancement do You????
Doc. said that You need to spend more time at a shallower depth and things will drasticly wrong very quickly deep. Just another reason not to dive with out a plan is that Your Buddy will be subject to the same Problems with time underwater and by Nitrogen Narcosis. No body in the water will think correctly at that depth. Diving deep requires an "IN Depth" study of You intended dive (Pun intended).
You need to take CLASSES for going deep to explain the DANGERS involved in diving deep, such as air goes more quickly than in shallow water....Boyles law.
I am very glad that You enjoy diving and that You are at home in the water but, don't make the water Your Home! Bill

 

[Mark Vlahos]

snip...

One of the things I think was not covered really well was dive planning. I think that may be because it’s a resort and most of the people come and expect to be guided around.

snip...


We were pretty close together, 3-5 ft, DM was not directly above me, we had been following the contour of the drop off. As I mentioned above we haven’t done a very good job of discussing dive planning. I will bring that up in the morning.
My wife commented that I seemed pretty confident about what I was doing. And I replied that I felt confident with the instructor as my buddy, but wouldn’t do these dives with a buddy I had pick up on a dive boat and didn’t know.
I know I am ultimately responsible for my own safety, used to do a lot of rock climbing and moderately extreme skiing. Same thing there, especially climbing, you have a buddy and if you have to know there experience level and where your going. And again you are ultimately responsible for your own safety.

Since you have indicated you are a rock climber I will answer in those terms...

The dives you are taking with the profiles you have indicated, using someone elses computer are similar to an aggressive top rope climb.

The only problem is while you are confident in your partners skills the climb you are taking is on a rope put in place by some other team of climbers that has allowed you to use it. You did not place the protection, you can't see the nasty nick in the rope 50 feet above you, and you have never climbed this particular section of rock before.

When you trust another divers computer you are hoping that your dive profile is close enough to your buddys that the differences will not hurt you. This is like trusting that the thin placement at the top is well placed in solid rock. How can YOU be sure if you did not see it? If you slip on the 5.11b section several feet below that placement will it hold, or are you looking at a nasty ground fall of 60 feet? If you are placed in a position where you are forced to trust somebody, anybody, else without having the tools to verify things for yourself then you are taking an unnecessary risk.

In rock climbing did you go straight to the nasty exposed routes or did you take the time to build on experiences before attempting that nasty exposed multi pitch climb? SCUBA is no different, except that you can get yourself into a situation that is dangerous more easily than climbing. But in either case it might not be easy to get out!

My suggestion is take your time, get lots of experience in relatively shallow situations before you go deep. Frankly, there is more light (and more color) when shallow, and you can get longer bottom times when you stay shallow, so why not do these dives?

I only go deep if the thing I am interested in seeing is deep. All other things being equal I would rather dive shallow every time.

Bye the way, learn how to use ALL of the equipment you are using before you get in the water, and keep close track of time, depth, and air supply. ALL three of these things are critical to keeping you safe. Plan your dive, and dive your plan.

Mark Vlahos

 

[Diver0001]

I just got certified OW PADI. I am very very comfortable in the water, always have been as long as I can remember. Was a swimming instructor at the Y when I was 14, was on the HS swim team, Red Cross WSI, etc. . . My instructors gave me 1 on 1 instruction (I was the only student at the time ). The instructors have a great deal of experience, on has been diving for almost 40 yrs, the other two are in the 20-25 yr range. I started with a Discover SCUBA course and decided since the opportunity was there I should take it. (I'm on a work assignment on the south west coast of Puerto Rico) I did really well on all of the course work and pool work. Did the open water dives with no trouble. The instructors all commented on how well I was doing, and they wished they had more students like me. I'm not saying this to pump my ego, I'll get to the significance in a minute. So, I go in my first "real" dive at a fantastic site on the Guanica Wall, the drop off begins at around 50 ft. I'm buddied up with my instructor, who is also DMing this dive, there are 2 other divers. We go over the edge, it's amazing, beautiful coral, fish, sponges, lobster, crabs, I could go on and on. . . Maybe 10-15 min into the dive I hear my instructor rattling to get my attention, they signal me to come up. I check my depth gauge and start up, I was at 95 ft. I didn't have any problems, ears ok, buoyancy control good, basically everything is good. We continue the dive at 50-75 ft, and gradually went shallower, did a 3 minute safety stop. Had a total bottom time of 40 min, max depth of 95. Did a 1 hr 10 min SI. Then did a 2nd dive on a gorgeous reef. Max depth 50 ft, bottom time was 46 min. Now, my first question. My rental regulator did not have a computer, I was diving on my buddy's computer (the instructor). I only have a flat table and did not track my depths and times so I couldn't calculate pressure groups or residual nitrogen. When I asked about it I was told it was OK because we stayed together and took a long surface interval. I trust these people, I took a long time (3 months) to do the cert course because of my work schedule and got to know them pretty good. But, I’m also a pretty safety conscious, quality minded person. You know the type always wear my seat belt and always have, make every one riding with me put on there belts, mow the grass with safety shoes, always wear safety glasses. . . I went diving with them again this morning. I used a reg with an integrated computer, but I’m not real good with it, we actually worked more with tables during the course. So, I basically ended up diving on the my buddy/DM’s computer. We talked about that and there didn’t seem to be a great deal of concern. It was a small group again, just 2 other divers. We did another wall dive (it was awesome) and a reef (it was good too). 1st dive went to a max of 104 ft, bottom time was 38 min, 2nd dive after a 54 min surface interval, went to 57 ft, with a bottom time of 42 min.
Now, my big question is am I going too fast? I’m planning on diving tomorrow, what do I do? If the staff is confident that I can go below 60 ft, should I be concerned? I’ve read a lot of posts here and agree that experience is important. And I think I’m getting a lot of good experience fast, but too fast? I know the instructors discussed letting me go that deep and all felt I could handle it. What are the risks? Just looking for some more input.
Sorry for the long post, but I thought the background was important.
Thanks for your feed back.

I can't properly address the comfort zone issue because I haven't seen you in the water. My first impression from what you wrote is that you're probably not going too fast for your comfort zone but you're making some beginner's mistakes and compromising your safety without possibly knowing it. This is maybe more experience related but it needs to be addressed. i'll point out the three things thta I think are highest priorities.

- first of all, if your buddy is DMing I have all kinds of alarm bells about that. As Doc said, when everything is going ok there's no problem but until you've seen what a fan can do to shiit then you shouldn't been buddied up with someone who might suddendly have to leave you to go deal with a pressing issue.

- You and your instructor both need a swift kick in the patoosh for sharing a computer. You might not know better but he does and either didn't tell you or doesn't care enough. This practice went out years ago. If you're really the safety conscious type then you will put your money where your mouth is and either get your own computer (and learn how to use it) or dive on the tables. There is no real middle ground here.

- You mentioned not looking at your meters and ending up deeper than you wanted to be. This might be an indication of a lack of attention to meters. In either case you shouldn't let this happen and you should strive to always be aware of your depth and pressure. This is something that all new divers need to work on and you're no exception to this. In my opinion it's unwise to go deep until you have this awareness shallow.

R..

 

[immersed]

Lot of good replies on this thread, good advice and information.

I'm not going to bash your instructors, but one of my first thoughts when I read the post was that if nothing else they're teaching you some bad habits. It's hard for you to determine your own safety boundaries when you're not explicitely shown good ones for beginning divers.

It's great that you have such comfort in the water, but keep in mind that familiarity leads to contempt. Make sure that comfort always works for you as opposed to it suddenly one day being your downfall. While you may be quite comfortable performing safety skills in controlled situations, the more actions that get committed to muscle memory, the better. That's only going to happen through practice, and it's much better to do that practice in shallow depths than deep ones.

Discussing the site, which includes the depth and what you might expect to see, is a dive briefing. The dive plan is what you're going to do in relation to the site, and includes things such as compass headings, distances, depths, and activities. For example, the dive brief may have a statement such as "right here the depth is about 50 feet, and off that direction it slopes down to 80 feet, sandy bottom, there's a current off that way, off this direction you're likely to see parrotfish, visibility is 70-80 feet". Your dive plan might be along the lines of "we're going to descend to 40 feet and swim out on a heading of 130° for 60 feet. When we reach 1500 psi we're going to head back to the boat, and on our safety stop we're going to practice an air exchange".

The complexity of the plan depends on the activity and circumstances. For example, if you're at a site wherein the max depth is 20 feet, your plan may be nothing more than "we're going to descend to the bottom, follow the contour of the cove, piddle around awhile, and come back at 1000 psi". If you're about to do a wreck or cave dive, you're looking at a much more detailed plan.

I got a computer immediately after certifying. However, I view it as a tool of convenience; I've worked with computers in some form or fashion for almost 30 years (hardcore, not just solitaire and word processing) so I know better than to trust one with my life - they're sneaky little buggers. I have to know what I'm doing at least as well as it does in order to keep an eye on it, so I have always calculated the square profile for every dive I've ever done. Working with the table over and over has given my most important dive equipment, located between my ears, a certain level of intuition with regard to my tissue saturation (and is part of 'awareness' mentioned previously). If you are going to do a lot of deep diving, I would strongly recommend that you learn how to calculate multi-level dives. Doing multi-level dives requires a higher degree of planning and is likely to be a good exercise for you to help you to develop the discipline that everyone is urging. I wholeheartedly agree with previous statements: don't go deep unless you have a purpose, there's more light, generally more to see, and longer bottom time shallower, and dive within your training. My definition of 'deep' with regard to this multi-level stuff, then, is what is considered deep for your PADI OW cert level: 60'.

I have a mustache as well, and I don't have enough width that I can do much trimming. So my eyeballs would be floating long before 5 minutes. I use a purge mask and evacuate water with almost every exhale.

I use my ankles in sort of a frog kick orientation to back up, but there's probably better methods.

Even if your buoyancy control was good at the start (and jbd has a valid point), it's likely that you can continue to improve it for quite some time. Navigation is a pretty handy skill to have, and you should practice contingency (OOA, reg & mask recovery, etc) skills with regularity for the rest of your diving career.